1909 S VDB mint mark positions

[GarryN]

Chuck and I had a conversation recently, it may be in the forum somewhere, of whether there are 3 or 4 mint mark positions on the 1909 S VDB. On page 54 of the Oct 6 Coin World, Mike Fahey includes photos of 4 mint mark positions. Very interesting article about the characteristics of counterfeits. Here I paraphrase Mike's description of the four mint mark positions:

Position 1 - S centered between 9 and 0. The S is high, with top of S above bottom of 9.

Position 2 - S centered between first 9 and 0 in date. S is medium height with top of S even with bottom of 9. S tilted to right.

Position 3 - S further to right, centered under left edge of 0. Top of S even with bottom of 9. S tilted to right.

Position 4 - S centered under left half of 0. S is well below bottom of 9 in the date and is upright.

I got mine out and included photos below of the mint mark position. Maybe members who have or have seen examples, can compare! Mike said that the characteristics of all four mint marks are identical. For example, he said "The lower inside of the upper curve displays a tiny raised dot"

Perhaps the same mint mark punch was used on all four dies.

[Doug]

Very interesting! I haven't drug out my '09-S VDB for a long time. Sadly, it's only a VF but there none the less. First thing I did was drag out an old copy of Bill Fivaz counterfeit detection guide from years ago that included photos. The criteria he listed was 1). the "S" mm must have serifs which are vertical and parallel to each other 2). A small die chip is usually visible at the inside back of the upper loop 3). High grade specimens will often show a depression in the upper serif of the "S" 4). The center crossbar of the "B" in the VDB on the reverse must be diagonal NOT vertical. Bills' photo matches position #4 but my coin matches position #1 with ALL the markers! This is interesting!!! How could Mr. Fahey say all four mm's are identical just because of "the dot" with obvious differences in position? Quite strange!

[GarryN]

Thanks Doug, more interesting information about the diagnostics of the 1909 S VDB. The mint mark position information I posted comes from the Mike Fahey article. His point is similar to your point in your third sentence, the mint mark characteristics are identical. He also mentions that the top and bottom serifs end in a vertical line. Apparently the same punch was used in all four positions. But Mike also provides photos of all 4 mint mark positions in the Coin World October 6 issue. Sorry for the confusion. I updated my post to clarify.

I checked my photo of the 1909 S VDB that is on my MSN page in the member list. It is not a good photo, but it appears that my example has a mint mark in position 3 or 4. I will get a better photo here as soon as possible.

Also, Doug, I am guessing, but perhaps, Bill Fivaz' "die chip" and Mike Fahey's "raised dot" are the same thing?

[GarryN]

OK I photographed my 1909 S VDB.


Here is a photo of the mint mark position. This is Position 3. The S is slightly tilted and even with the bottom of the 9's. You can clearly see the raised dot described by Bill Fivaz and Mike Fahey and the vertical lines at each end.


http://home.comcast.net/~g.naples/wsb/html/view.cgi-photo.html--SiteID-1083539.html

I also took a photo of the VDB on the reverse of the
1909 S VDB:

http://home.comcast.net/~g.naples/wsb/html/view.cgi-photo.html--SiteID-1083543.html

[coppercoins]

Very nice Garry - looks like it's definately one of the genuine ones to me. Unfortunately I don't know a heck of a lot about them because of my so-far limited exposure to them.

[GarryN]

Thanks, Chuck, I think that the interesting thing is the dot tucked in the upper loop of the mint mark.