Question on Proof Set vs. single Coin values.

[creilly]

Question: I noticed a 1984 Proof set is valued at $8.00, However I noticed an 1984 Nickel is valued at $30 bucks at PF69 DC now I know that not all coins in a proof set will grade that High..... Blah blah blah...
But if Proof Sets are in general Better coins why are then not worth more as a whole than as single coins?

[eagames]

My reasoning... I'll bable a bit ok

They all aren't PF69 DC when you send them to PCGS or NGC or ANACs (it might be for the other graders) look at the pop report numbers and do the math. A lot of people send them for grading and out of thousands a few come back with those grades.

It's hard to be sure before you send them so how many coins would you send to get that grade at $12-15 each for grading plus postage? Most buyers won't will give you PF69 DC money unless it's graded by one of the real graders.

Selling modern high grades or proofs is uncertain. I don't know many collectors that buy the highest grade moderns or proofs and I know none that would pay the prices listed in the guides. It's not like selling a 55/55 cent. Put a nice 55/55 cent on ebay for $1000 then put some modern PF69-DC coins book valued at $1000 on ebay and I expect the 55/55 will get over that $1000 but those high grade modern proofs might not sell or might go for low bids. The prices they list for ultra grades is not realistic in my opinion but the $8 proof set price is realistic. Dealers would pay $1 for the 84 PF nickel in typical PF.
Most sets people sell for low listed prices are very common and they already looked for high grades and errors so that reduces your chance of getting great ones. I've known people that bought a set because they were sure one coin was a gem, that cherrypicking pays off but may have already been done.

[Dick]

Cathy, I don't know an awful lot about proof sets, and this is only an opinion. The proof sets are minted in higher numbers than the "mint sets", I believe, because you will note that the mint state coin values are higher in grade, than the proof coin. I don't go for the proof sets as much as I do for the mint sets, for this very reason, but that is not to say that the proof set won't achieve a higher value, in time, if you want to wait that long. I will break open a proof set to remove a single coin if it is better in mint state than proof. There are those who will not agree with my way of thinking, but I say, "to each his own".
I have always had a "soft spot " for the Franklin half dollars, because the were minted for so short a time. The Walking libertys are another, but way out of my class. Right now, after having been in the forum for a short time, have been convinced that I should have gone this way, a long time ago. (cents, and their idiosyncrosies, varieties, etc), are more obtainable, and are just as elusive as any other. Thanks, guys!
Dick

[eagames]

Dick,

You said "I will break open a proof set to remove a single coin if it is better in mint state than proof"

Just thought I would mention that "proof" is not a grade it's a method of manufacturing. That means that you can spend a proof coin or hit it with a hammer and it's still a proof (just lower grade proof). Taking it out of the proof set does not make it change from proof to mint state. Even if one is circulated it is still a proof. Proofs can be any grade. The reverse of this is also true so a non proof coin can not be a proof no matter the condition, it can be proof like but not a proof.

The reason for this is on many coins the proof dies they are from are different in design. This is why they have wide AM cents, on silver quarters there are also business strikes with the reverses intended for proofs and those are varieties. Also there are differances in the way they strike the proofs and how they prepare the dies and the planchets.

Hope this makes sense/cents

[Dick]

ED, I figured I had keft myself open for a "barrage" I thought about what I had said, and realized that what I had inferred was not true! The minting of the proof, as opposed to the minting of "coins for circulation", is very different Much care, and attention is taken for the proof, multiple strikes, for clarity of detail, for examle. Like you say, the proof, no matter whether in case, or loose, is still a proof, albeit, of lessor value, because of change of status quo, having been taken from the protective environment. In my case, I have removed a coin that has had a "struck thru" action, and by replacing it with another proof coin of the same date, etc, makes the set a bit more valuable, eventually. The reason for removing a coin from a set, usually is because it is believed to be a "better than average" strike, and therefor worthy of further scrutiny, and grading, ultimately being "slabbed", and a much higher "price tag", applied. Not necessarily INCREASING THE VALUE! Thanks for your comments!
Dick

[eagames]

Dick,

The reason I pointed it out is it always amazed me that for some coins a proof is much cheaper than the same grade regular strike. In reality it just means some nice proofs were saved but not many perfect bus strikes. Some of those coins are Indian cents, look at the 1872 in proof compared to bus strike, the proof is more than $50,000 cheaper. Isn't that interesting?


The prices are from the PCGS guide link below.

DATE PROOF_66_RED REGULAR_66_RED

1870 $6200 ................$22,500
1871 $8500.................$47,500
1872 $9250.................$60,000

http://www.pcgs.com/prices/frame.chtml?type=date&filename=flying_eagle_indian_cent

[Dick]

ED, I know what you mean. I for one, cannot fathom the reason that a proof HAS to be woth so much more, when it is never subjected to the wear, and tear that the "business strikes", are subject to. A proof, in reality in nothing more than a "pretty shape", that people buy for investments. The Mint sets, are essencially the same thing, except without all the "bell and whistles"! They look like the business coinage, and taken out of the wrap, are indistinguishable from the others, other than for the wear difference. I will never pay the price for a "slabbed" coin, because I don't think the "case" warrants the extra money The fact that the coin has been "certified authentic" is nice for the "peace of mind" of the purchaser, but why the Inherrant doubt"? If the "attributors are so highly paid for an "opinion", and others are equally qualified to do exactly the same, why aren't ALL attributors paid the same? I could go on, and on, but I'm sure you get the point. The only "slabbed" coin I own is a 2005-D quarter that cost me $30.00 to have it verified as MS65! Hell, I knew that when I sent it to ANACS!
Dick

[eagames]

I agree there's no reason to get most modern stuff graded and myself I'm not into ultra high graded modern stuff anyway.

There are things worth getting graded. Anything high value where a few grades makes a big change in price. One's often faked like 1909-s vdbs, 1955-ddos (many good fakes exist) or key where grade realy matters. Even if you're sure of the grade and know it's not fake because someday a family member might sell it for you and not know, not be able to photo it... by getting it graded with attribution they can sell it easier or look up a price. It helps protect from enviornmental damage.