CONCERNING 2006P-1DO-017

[murphy]

I have a friend who has dealt with Daryl and they talk. Here's what my friend had to say about their last correspondence:


"I talked to Daryl again, he was told by Coppercoins he was unteachable in doubled dies, i am not certain what that means but that is what he said they told him and he was mad about it, i wounder if this fellow is playing with a full deck of cards? He seems very knowlegable and has the books and the equipement for study and to sell, but the common sence seems to poorly developed- anyway, i thought i would share what he told me with you,"

[Rhubarb]

He seems very knowlegable and has the books and the equipement for study and to sell, but the common sence seems to poorly developed- anyway, i thought i would share what he told me with you,"[/quote]


Your are referring to the ebay auction seller aren't you.
I may be slow in developing the knowledge for what I need to actually look for, but this guy.................

Rhubarb

[Dick]

Daryl seems to fit the old saying about "leading a horse to water, but not being able to make him drink".
Dick

[murphy]

I took another look at some of the pictures of the coins that Daryl put up on eBay and believe it or not, I actually did see doubling in some of them...but it's machine doubling. He's done what most of us have done very early on and sees more than what is really there. He don't understand doubling all that much and probably don't want to learn because once he learns what the difference is between machine and real hub doubling, he'd have to stop misrepresenting his coins in eBay auctions. He probably knows that the only way he would ever have the Big One is if he makes one up in his own mind.

[Bob P]

I don't know who at coppercoins told him he was unteachable. It certainly wasn't me, as I have been emailing him lately. The more information I receive about him thanks to some of you, and the more I delve into his history on EBay, the less I want to try and teach him. When someone wins an auction, and the he refuses to sell it to him at that price...and call the buyer a cheap SOB for bidding, then I begin to have problems with integrity issues. Daryl does have some problems, which would make it even better for me to talk to him at the show. You all know me...I am such a nice guy

HOWEVER FOLKS....If someone from here told him he was unteachable, and for some reason or another he associates that statement with coppercoins.com...that's not cool. Whenever we attempt to educate, and the person can't seem to grasp it. it is best to just leave them alone. I do not want anyone to believe that they can not some here for education without being harassed, mistreated, laughed at or insulted. Our endeavors here in the forum are pretty clear. We have fun, we share, we teach and we learn.

[wavysteps2003]

Bob - rule me out of being in contact with him. To be honest with you, I would not fool with him, nor would I send him an email.

However, I do agree with you that a site should not be represented when a negative communications is sent to a person. There may be some who belong to Coppercoins or CONECA that feel opposite to the way we see things and as part of the orgznization, their feeelings in the matter must be considered.

BJ Neff

[Earwig]

Well in my opinion his feedback will get him soon. I seems like you all tried to lead him in the right direction but sometime you must just let nature take its course (or ebay take its course). The statement buyer beware comes to mind. I hope nobody gets hit to hard in the pocket by this guy. On another point how many of us have spent a buck or two on a gamble and got a great surprise i know im the proud owner or 2 bu 1943 doubled dies that i paid 2 bucks for because they were listed as 2 bu 1943 d dies (with no picture). As Dick said lead him to water, if he dont drink it his fault. Bob and BJ i applaud you both for trying to eduacate this guy, reading threads here and on other sites i probably would have snapped and said something stupid to him

Eric

[daggit]

Theres something to be said for honesty and integrity because what goes around comes around. As you can all tell ...I am very new at this and would never attempt to sell a variety coin unless I had varification from a knowledgeable source. In my opinion it would be not only dishonest to represent something incorrectly but also embarassing. It looks like you are either purposely deceiving buyers or that you don't have a clue about what you sell. Ethics would prevent me from even considering selling anything that wasn't given a stamp of approval (so to speak) from those who have the experience and knowledge behind them.

[Bob P]

I think the big difference between you and him daggit, is that you have a conscience (sp), and his is lost somewhere else. As I said earlier, the more I delve into his previous auctions and such, the more I will likely distance myself from him. We tried, but we can't win them all.

[Rhubarb]

I totally agree that daggit is right about having a honesty and integrity does have alot to do with this hobby. A cononscience(you spelled it right Bob) play's a big role in one's integrity. The majority of the people here, have my respect for they have only tried to help. For that I thank them. I still have a long way to go to get to there level.

I have viewed his feedback with the remark's made by the seller. It doesn't look good to call someone a s.o.b. as Bob stated.

I enjoy looking at his auction's and just giggle at all the remark's he has in his listing's. I have a 19 in. screen, some of his listing's won't fit on my screen. I have to admit that a couple of his coins would have fooled me.


Rhubarb

[murphy]

Here he is again:
http://cgi.ebay.com/2006-D-1c-Double-Die-Obv-Rev-THE-BIG-ONE-VDB-LIB-IGWT_W0QQitemZ190185632351QQihZ009QQcategoryZ31373QQrdZ1QQssPageNameZWD9VQQcmdZViewItem?_trksid=p1638.m125#ebayphotohosting

I contacted eBay and told them what he's doing, I gave them references to his auctions, this thread and what the pro's think about his coins and I noted that his last eBay ID was NARU'ed and I asked that his present ID be NARU'ed as well.

[wavysteps2003]

Hopefully it will work Murph, but I have little hope in Ebay.

BJ

[murphy]

A Question and an Update concerning the 2006P-1DO-017....

I'll update the population as I know it. Dennis White found 3 more Stage-B cents this year. I have not found one since October of 2007.
Stage-A = 5
Stage-B = 20

The question is whether it's worth noting the difference between Stage-A and Stage-B of the 2006P-1DO-017. Nowhere can I find a guide or webpage that describes the difference...not even here. Coneca had some articles but I can't find them now. Looks lik e they may have been removed.
The reason I bring this up is because of an email that I got recently from a customer of mine. He states:

"I have researched the stage a and b, and the only difference is a bit of metal. There is no conclusive evidence that stage a was before or after b, the theory is that there are fewer of the cents that do not have metal verse the ones that do, a very compelling theory, i have talked to a few in the industry Ken Potter and a fellow from Copper coins "Charles" and a few others and they see no greater value the the stage a and b. They also say that is your creation, i guess you can do that since you were the official discover of this double die, i then looked at what is on eBay and other auction sites and have found not one stage a sell for any kind of money. The problem we have is so few know about this coin, so few want to know about this coin, the big guys are not not going to push this coin because they do not have a quantity, and no book will put it in there book at this time. Sure we hear rumors but that is all they are, and will probably not happen. Maybe thirty years from now like the 1955 and 1972 this coin might become a premium coin but i will probably be too old to care or dead."

Is he right? Nobody cares enough about this variety to mention that there is a difference and that Stage-A is 4-times harder to find than the incredibly scarce Stage-B? I wonder sometimes why I even look for them.

[wavysteps2003]

Hi Murphy, it seems that it has been a long time since you have posted!

What can you say about a person like this and it shows just what knowledge is out and about.

As far as stage goes; while Coppercoins coins does not list the two different "A" and "B" stages, CONECA does. I am sure that John Wexler makes a distinction between the two stages as well.

That little piece of metal that is referred to is significant for it does separate the EDS stage ("A") from the EMDS stage ("B"). This is the first lack of knowledge that your writer shows. A die crack (the piece of metal) just does not simply disappear once formed and it is a verifiable marker for the later die stage. When and if I am asked if I would prefer a EDS over a EMDS coin, I like just about everyone whom I know, will always pick the EDS coin.

Which comes to value. An EDS coin will be more valuable than a EMDS coin if they are in the same condition. It would be silly to think otherwise.

As to quantity. Do the "big boys" have many 1969-S Lincoln cent DDO-001s? or the the 1970-s Lincoln cent DDO-001s?. Or just about any rare obverse doubled die? That is what makes it of value, not having but a few.

Murphy, to be honest with you; keep on looking, find as many as you can and when you get a correspondence such as you posted, ignore it

BJ Neff

[Bob P]

Murph,
As far as I am concerned, this die is so rare, that it is all but impossible to get good numbers for informational purposes. The stage A and B examples as such are accurate. Stage A has no die crack and chip in the back of the head, whereas stage B does. Die stages don't necessarily have anything to do with die state. In this case, it does differentiate the difference between EDS and EMDS. Whether a prospective buyer feel there is a monetary difference between the two is his/her opinion and prerogative. This is where your friend seems to have a problem. I think lack of knowledge on the minting process is at fault here. Also, because of this difference between the dies, it also tells us that more are out there. This type of anomaly does NOT happen between coin 1 and 20. There are more Stage A's out there, but they haven't been reported. We will never know how many of these were struck. We can only go by what has been reported.
To be perfectly honest Murph, most of the 'Big Guys' don't have one of these in there possession. Your customer seems to me to be blowing hot air for some reason. Maybe he is trying to get a consensus whereas he might buy one for less if he professes to know that there is no interest in them???
We are still trying to get this one listed with an FS number. Once that happens, things will change. When that will happen, no one knows.
I liken it to someone who owns a Lamborghini to someone who has never seen one. How much more will the owner know about the car than the non-owner. If a car that special is #1 of 1,000, or #800 of 1,000, does that reduce the fascination of owning one? Based on such a small number to begin with, it certainly doesn't. The same holds true for this cent. With only approximately 20 known or reported, this is NOT a die that should draw no interest. To some folks, it would be out of their price range. For others, based on rarity at this point, they think it is improbable that they would ever see or own one. It is very difficult for the 'Big Guys' to push a coin they have little or no knowledge about. You also have to remember that in 2006, so many billions of pennies were struck, that some folks assume this die may have made a full run and there are a million of them out there. Only time will tell. This discovery is only a litter more than a year old.
The email from your customer is somewhere out in left field. He makes all kinds of assumptions that are not true. We will see where this goes from here, but I would not sell my examples based on misinformation like your customer states.
I have modified the narrative under EDS on the site to annotate the differences between stages A and B. All it takes is someone to ask, and I can do things like that. One other thing...your customer assumes you created the stages A nd B because it is your discovery??? He even goes so far as to say Chuck told him that you made it up? That is not true. We determine the die stages, and Chuck would never state that the owner of the coin does that. Basicaly, he is lying about saying that either Ken or Chuck would say that.
That should also tell you what he knows about the attribution process.