2005 P DDR

Russellhome · Veteran Member

I got an odd mix of circulated cent rolls from the bank the other day. Somebody must have recently dumped their stash of cents as it had a very high copper content and many gem BU late 70's and early 80's cents. But 2007's and other recent issues were mixed in as well, including this one:

My 1st thought was die gouge - not column doubling. Then I noticed the double knees - properly spaced and oriented to the doubled column? I don't know what happened here -- but that has to be at least a 20 degree rotation!

It was a fun lot to search - and I have only a few rolls left. I may just have to go back and see if they have more of these.

Dick · Expert Member

I did something I don't normally do,. I went to the bank, and the teller had two turn-in plastic bags that they use for Brinks, or Loomis, etc pickup. This time I asked the teller if I could buy those rolls, 1,5,10, and 25 cent rolls. She said Yes, so I took them home. There is 45 rolls of cents, ten rolls of nickels, thirteen rolls of dimes, and41 eolls of quarters. I have checkeed the quarters, and nothing special. Some WY state coins,and the rest general run of the dates. No silver. The one odd-ball is a 1992 UK. two pence. I haven't checked the rst yet, but the cents will be last, and very closely checked. Nickels, and dimes I don't collect, but I do have a large batch of them. Maybe I'll get an album, and see how many holes it will have after I finish. If I find anything in the nickels, I'll check to see what might be "collectable".
Dick

Bob P · Site Admin

Ken,
Would I be correct in that you coin is a 2004? I have seen something like this before, but I can't remember the date of the coin(s). Yours is different in that the knees are doubled as well. I can't remember if the ones I have seen before has the same doubling. Either way, I would say this is a specimen that could go on to the site.

Russellhome · Veteran Member

It is a 2005 P. I emailed a photo to another attributor and he said the same thing you just did. He said someone submitted this coin months ago and but that it was a much later die state. The double knees did not show up and he was unable to list it. He asked to see the coin -- but I'd be happy to send it to you when it gets back.

Bob P · Site Admin

Sounds good Ken. With the doubling of the knees, it is definitely worth listing. Thanks!!

wavysteps2003 · Expert Member

Just did a measurement of the offset angle and it appears to be about 30 degrees. Oddly enough, that angle is not uncommon for I just attributed an obverse Lincoln cent die with a 30 degree offset from primary to secondary image (see "Unusual 2000 Lincoln cent, with DDO & trails).

Since this has occured more than once (I have seen other examples of such offsets) this may very well constitute a new class of doubled die for no other class definition covers such an angular offset.

As I have mentioned before, there is a difference concerning the definitions associated with the classes when applying them to the doubled die made from the single squeeze hubbing system and the multiple hubbing system. This may be academic and the more relative point is in knowing just how doubled dies are created, however, a definition should be correct in all aspects. This is not the situation presently. Should it be corrected before it becomes intrenched into the numismatic nomenclature? You bet!!!!

Just something to think about.

BJ Neff

Russellhome · Veteran Member

Thanks for your comments. I too wonder about the mechanics involved here. It seems too far off for the die and hub to self-correct during a single squeeze. The offset is not really that far (i.e. the knees are very near where they should be) - but the rotation is impressive.

It almost looks like a "false start" to me. After the partial squeeze with a rotated hub or die blank, the press operator backs off, corrects the orientation of the hub and die, and then squeezes out the secondary image. That's my theory, anyway.

I have one of the "State Quarter" defaced dies that I bought just for the heck of it. The side of the die has a flat spot that I assume is used for alignment, but I'm surprised there is not something more substantial and fool-proof (like a notch or a pin) to insure the die can only be fitted into the press with the proper orientation. It sure looks to me like it is very possible to install a blank die into the press with any degree of rotation.

wavysteps2003 · Expert Member

Ken - The die that you show is a finished die and an unfinished die does not have that flat area.

I am not to sure how they position a die blank to be hubbed, but that may be where the problem lies. I think that you have the right idea what happened with this die, an aborted first attempt followed by a second complete hubbing that did not eradicate all of the first initial hubbing and was rotated approximately 30 degrees.

I have put off all studies until the beginning of next year, after the FUN show. I am then going to attack the single squeze hubbing system worldwide, LOL.

BJ Neff