2000 1c Different "Extra Beard?"

Bob P · Site Admin

I don't think it is necessary to post additional pictures Dick. Billy is basing his decision on his in-depth analysis and other things he has seen. He certainly isn't going at if half hearted, and sooner or later I may come to the same conclusion. All I am saying here is that I am not quite as ready to de-list it until I can form a conclusive decision based on my own analysis.
What this does do is give other folks different avenues to follow, and other ideas to put into our own analysis.
Billy is right in that we should do what we think is right for our own respective listings. I will take everything he has generously given and use that along with my own analysis to come to my own conclusion. Whether or not that equates to a de-listing or not remains to be seen. All I have here is one example of the coin in question, so that is all I can use at this point.

Gabe · Senior Member

Billy great overlays! The analysis you have done has been enough to make me highly question whether these extra beards are doubled dies or not. I'm actually leaning towards your analysis, which calls them clashed die marks.

Dick · Expert Member

Bob, I agree, and thru this, and others, do learn a little here, and there. I was actually testing my own opinion, and am begining to think There is more than meets the eye, but then I have to trust everyone else's eyes! Mine aren't the ones I was born with, (conditionally)!
Dick

eagames · Expert Member

Maybe since the portrait is not flat it can make a long clash line from a design thats strait become a curved line in the clash. Idea

wavysteps2003 · Expert Member

"Maybe since the portrait is not flat it can make a long clash line from a design thats strait become a curved line in the clash"

The only way a straight line can become a curved line during transfer is if the line is bent during the transfer.

Since the die is tempered steel, that seems highly unlikely.

BJ Neff

Dick · Expert Member

Gentlemen, at the risk of being obnoxious, and hard-headed, I stand my ground! Photo one that was posted, this thread shows some ,(indication of doubling in the hair at the lower back of the head). The overlay shows the memorioal bldy with the bays, MUCH too high. compare the "clash reference photo_, by Coop on a 2000-S coin. The bays are much lower. I base my "clash indicator, below the ear" , on that photo. If it is erroneous, then so am I and I'll appologize if anyone has been offended. My curiosity still dwells opn that small area of the hair. I think, (or so my eyes tell me), that there seems to be an indication of doubling there.

The bottom of the bay is notable below the ear lobe, even with the mouth.

Dick

Bob P · Site Admin

Dick,
I don't think you are being obnoxious. You are more than capable of forming your own opinion based on what you are given. That is EXACTLY what we do here. If out of 10 people, 5 agree and 5 disagree with a certain assessment, that is based on what they know and see. We certainly encourage your input, and everyone else's as well. Remember...none of us was there when this die, went through whatever it did. Anything we suggest is an educated 'guess'. So whether is is Billy's opinion, BJ's, opinion, Ed's Gabe's, yours or my opinion, it doesn't deflect the fact that something happened here. Billy has decided to de-list it from his files, and that is cool. I have decided to leave it as is for now until I do a more in-depth analysis. I encourage every one's opinion or guesses. That's what make this forum what it is. I would hate it if I said one thing and everyone followed in line because I said it...even if they disagreed. We will see where this goes from here.
As far as I know right now, the die is listed as a doubled die by CONECA, Wexler, Coppercoins, and Potter's VCR system. I have removed Billy's cross reference from the site as he has it de-listed. Should others follow suit or should Billy change his mind, I will make the applicable changes on our site.

One good part about all this is that I have been forced to go through the many bags I have here looking for 2000P cents for comparison and the possilbility of finding another one. In doing so, I have found 3 2000P Wide AM cents! Not bad huh??

Dick · Expert Member

Bob, there is always a way, if one looks hard enough. I appreciate your opinon, and Based on my thinking, though it prudent to post the photo, for reference. I can , and have been wrong, more often than not, but When I AM wrong, I want to be the first to admit it.
You're looking back thru the 200-P coins is a decided advantage, in that we "westerners" have to sit by, and watch, and wait for the wheels of time to roll. Good hunting, and at the same time, congrats!, on those wide "AM'.
Sabdra, Bob, is a "man after my own heart", as the saying goes. When in trouble, look for BOB!
Dick

wavysteps2003 · Expert Member

Just a little more food for thought on the die clash theory.

The three coins that I have showing the extra beard have no indications of a die clash on the reverse. While it is possible for the reverse die to have been changed out, I think it unlikely. The MINT is more apt to change an obverse die than the reverse die, which more often is abraded to remove any signs of die clashes.

BJ

ddorpm · Advanced Member

I took another photo of the coin I started this post with. This time the photo is taken with the coin flat, straight-on shot. This type allows most areas within the photo to much more in focus than the other photo having some blurry areas towards the edge of the photo. We can now get a much clearer view of a larger area.

In this top photo one can see this is nothing more than a multiple die clash. We can see it extending way on down the neck and continuing into the collar and then come back around.

Additionally, one can even make out the outline edge of the statue head. Also in the photo at the upper right way up in the beard one can can see more clash remnants that follow the column.

The bottom photo is the same overlay photo I used earlier in this post. The only difference is I added a blue arrow to the photo. On my coin I see a horizontal line in the location where the blue arrow is pointing. Bob and those of you who have a specimen check your coin and see if you have it too. This extra horizontal line in the beard just right of the earlobe is another part of the die clash.

Just as we are seeing in the top photo, this is nothing more than a mis-aligned die clash and not an extra beard doubled die. The curving is simply the parts of the clash field that is between the designs of the statue legs, arm, head and pedestal that give it an appearance of looking like extra beard strands but are not.

Edited to add:

For Bob:

I checked with your web page on your 2000P-1DO-001. The die scratches you show just south of the letter "D" of GOD are on my coin. The trails leading off from the letters of LIBERTY are on my coin. My coin also shows a die gouge extending northward that is nestled at the inner rim over near the date area. Another die gouge can be seen protruding just out into the field from the very top edge of Lincoln's hair and would be located between the words WE TRUST.

However, when I check my coin with the die markers you indicate on your web page for your 2000P-1DO-001 I find nothing on my coin's reverse match. My coin's reverse is overall very smooth fields. There is no long nearly horizontal die scratch that extends from the lower right corner of the letter "M" of UNUM outward into the field that you illustrate. There is no die scratches you show that are north of the letters "CE" of CENT in the field. And there is no die scratch on my coin that you show on your web page extending through the 1st letter "S" of STATES.

It appears the reverse could have been replaced.

[/i]

Bob P · Site Admin

Thanks Billy.

I will take all the new info you have given and include it in my examination...including the 'changed reverse die'. One more question though...what would you say the die state of your coin is (the one with the matching obverse markers)? If possible, I would like to track it down to an exact die state (ie: EMDS)
I have just separated about 350 2000P cents from some bags I have here. I am going to go through them this evening to see if I can find any more examples of this anomaly (and maybe even a few more Wide AM's)

Speaking of Wide AM's...does anyone know off the top of their heads how many different Wide AM dies were used for the 2000P series? All 3 that I found the other day seem to be different dies.

wavysteps2003 · Expert Member

The one defining feature on the reverse of 2000P-1DO-001 is a die crack across the right arm of the T in UNITED. I know the coin that John Wexler has also possess this feature and I am fairly sure that the one you have Bob also has this die crack. This would be the indicator that would reliable tell if the reverse die had been changed.

None of the three coins that are 2000P-1DO-001 that I have show a horizontal mark to the right of the upper ear lobe. They range from LEDS to LMDS, based on the metal flow lines and the die crack that progresses towards the rim (on the T).

I can not comment on the second die found, however, on the 2000P-1DO-001 die that was first attributed by myself, I can. The lack of a die clash on the reverse, the curvature of all the lines and the approximate 1cm misalignment of the obveres die to the reverse die needed to make this die clash fit, just does not seem to work. At this point, the only feasible way these lines can be accounted for is a doubled die. Until more concrete evidence is found to dispute the doubled die theory, I will stand by that.

BJ Neff

eagames · Expert Member

Bob,

There might be a lot of dies from 98 and 00 with the wide AM rev.

But for 99 the last I heard is they all came from one die.

That's just the rumors, not proven by fact.

ddorpm · Advanced Member

Below are photos of the obverse and reverse of my specimen. It is the same one you guys list as 2000P-1DO-001 also referenced as WDDO-001 and CONECA DDO-001/1-O-VIII. I believe Potter is VCR#3/DDO#1.

My specimen exhibits the horizontal clash remnants that I mentioned earlier at the right of the earlobe and actually goes thru to the other side inner ear as pointed out with the two white arrows.

The bottom photo is of the reverse of my specimen. It easily shows die clash remnants most visible in the pedestal. Those remnants in the pedestal correspond to the outline edge of the earlobe and adjacent partial beard. Also in the photo, additional clash remnants can be seen in the lower 5th and 7th bays.

It appears my specimen is most likely an earlier die state/stage than the specimens you have examined.

From what I see on my specimen, as shown in the two photos below, is nothing more than a prominent mis-aligned die clash (MAD Clash error) and not an extra beard doubled die.

However, as I said in a earlier post, the call for your respective files is your's to make.

Russellhome · Veteran Member

Assuming that Billy is right and this does get delisted as a DV from everybody's books -- surely there will still be some collector interest in this "error" coin. I know clashes are fairly common and don't have a huge collector following... but I like clashes and have bought several. And a "MAD Clash" has to be considered 'not your ordinary' clash (except perhaps for 2000 cents). "MAD CLASH" even sounds cool. DD or not, I imagine these will still be found and sell at a premium. Just not at the $50 they have sold for in the recent past.