2000 1c Different "Extra Beard?"

Bob P · Site Admin

OK Folks,
Below are photos of 6 DIFFERENT dies that show basically the same thing. They show evidence of clashes along with lines which we had previously referred to as 'extra beard remnants'
Please remember that we are talking about MISALIGNED DIE CLASHES here. With a misaligned die, we wouldn't expect all the clash marks to line up like on Coops photos. There is substantial proof that our previousl listed die had clashed...both on the obverse and reverse. The arrows point those areas out. If these photos don't change your mind, I don't know what will, but as far as I am concerned, this is proof that the coin in question was a misaligned die clash, and NOT a doubled die. If you still determine that it is a doubled die, are you ready to concede that I now have 6 different doubled dies? The black arrows point to the known die clash remnants, and the white arrows point to the so-called extra beard remnants. The lighting as all important in being able to see a lot of these clash lines. In addition, there is evidence that some clashes were abraded away. Let me know what you think.

Rhubarb · Senior Member

Bob,

I know very little about Clashed Dies. But what degree in you assesment was the die rotated? It would seem to be almost 85 degrees parallel with the steps. Help me understand for this is a learning curve.

Rhubarb

eagames · Expert Member

To me it looks like almost no rotation, just different amounts of misalignment between clashes. Lets see what others say Smile

Bob P · Site Admin

Rhubarb,
The clashed die would not be 'rotated' per se. It would be upside down and inverted. If you take a look at Coop's photos you will see what happens during a clash. Remember that a die clash is when the hammer and anvil (obverse and reverse) dies hit each other without a coin blank between them. This imparts markings of each die onto the other one, which subsequently shows up on the struck coins until they are abraded (polished) or wear away.
What we look for in die clashes is evidence or markings of some of the reverse die on the obverse or vice-versa. If you look closely at my photos, you can see portions of the memorial bays clashed onto the neck area.
I hope this helps a bit.

Rhubarb · Senior Member

Bob,

It would be column # 6 that has light impressions on the obverse die? Thank's for the explanation.

David

coop · Expert Member

On the clashed image on page three of this thread, if you look at the center marks on the beard and statue, I think I see what your going with. The center of the design, show part of the distortion and if they were miss aligned just a little not sideways, but vertically, the the clash would be in the right place. So I can see how that could happen. On Billy's image of the curved beard lines under the other beard, from the overlay you can see what happened and if it happened twice or moved during the clash, it would make those marks. Correct me if I still don't have it??

Rhubarb · Senior Member

Coop,

When you say "moved" does that mean rotated? If so I do see what your saying.

David

Bob P · Site Admin

David,
The marks you refer to is not actually a column, but the bays. In the case of most of these photos, the strong horizontal line is the 5th memorial bay. Coops pics are excellent for nailing down which piece you might be seeing on the clash. You just need to remember that it would be upside down and inverted.

Coop,
I think you have it. With the differences in the clashes on each of these coins, I really had to move the overlay a lot before I found the right location. In some cases the misalignment was both vertical and horizontal. The ones that made it the easiest were the ones where there was a strong horizontal clash mark from the 5th memorial bay. Once I got those lined up, the beard remnants were obviously parts of the statue and columns. In every case where you could see the clash of the memorial bay, the 'beard remnants' were exactly parallel. There were no cases where the clash had one angle to it and the remnants went another. Die 6 shows this well. Die 2 on the other hand shows that this was a multiple clash as well.

Dick · Expert Member

Bob, Coop, And ED, I see where this has gone, and I agree with Bob, that one is a mulitclash. I had to leave the area, due to POWERFUL allergic rewaxction to my grand-daughters perfume!, Si I missed the discussion. I will make my comments to Bob, in a PM, as he asked, and I have a questionCoop when did you start using the grid system to work with your overlays? They make my system look older than me!
Dick

coppercoins · Site Admin

Sorry to be so late chiming in on this, but from the very first time I saw these marks below the ear I did not believe them to be doubled dies. They were reported in one of the magazines, and I immedialtely shook my head. These are NOT doubled dies.

coop · Expert Member

Dick: Its just that some may not see the overlay images and the grid (which is actually tiles) helps to show them both. Also the tile/grid works for multiple images. They are harder to line up to get the grids to touch the same areas, but I use them for educational purposes when questions arise.

coop · Expert Member

I think this area is the one in question.

The 7th column (Both sides which would two lines because the edges of the field inside the bays would touch there) and statue make a crossing on the jaw line.

wavysteps2003 · Expert Member

I will confirm that this is a die clash for I can not deny what is shown and I can only vouch for the die that I do have in hand.

In the begining, my main concern was the offset between dies and that was one of the first objects that I tackled. Even looking at it now, something odd must have happened.

You can see by this overlay that the rim would be in the last 0 of the date and also the bottom of the bust. MADs just do not have this amount of mis-alignment, so there is something more that is missing from knowing exactly what happened. However, that is beside the point.

I think one of the points that some are missing is just how these clash lines / areas are matched to a design element. I feel it is important to identify a clash section to where it came from. To date, no one has adeqautely shown where each clash mark was originated. The other point that may be confusing some is how they are formed.

The first thing to remeber is that both dies are slightly bulged in the center; this helps the cold metal flow when the coin is struck and is also why most clashes are seen in the center. Now, when dies meet, the high points of each die that do compact the other die, will leave indents or recessed areas. So, when a coin is struck, it will produce a high area because of that indent or depression. Keeping that in mind, look at the next two pictures.

The green arrow is pointing to an area that is at the same level as the field or the highest point on the reverse die. That small section, between the right side of column # 6 and the pedistal is the first bump that is seen under Lincoln's ear, indicated by a green arrow.

The second bump, shown with the red arrow, is the area between the chair and Lincon's left leg.

The third bump, shown with the black arrow, is Lincoln's crotch.

The fourth bump, shown with the blue arrow, is the space between Lincoln's body and his right arm.

The fifth bump, shown with the orange arrow, is the space between the right arm and the left side of the seventh column.

The anomally in the pedestal's base, indicated with a yellow arrow, does not conform to any high areas of the obverse die.

My only saving grace with this die is that it is a trail die. The ultimate proof that these bumps were formed by a clashing of the dies would be to find this trail die without the clash. That is not outside the realm of possibilities.

BJ Neff

Bob P · Site Admin

Thank you for your input BJ. I think the hardest thing we ALL had to deal with was the severity of the misalignment. That is why we spent as much time as we did on it. Anyway...thanks again for your input and analysis.

As far as the Die Variety News supplement Billy Crawford was putting out concerning this die, it is now available for viewing along with analysis from John Wexler and myself. It does show what BJ was referring to, and that is the specific area of the reverse clash that made these marks. You will be surprised at what John Wexler discovered on one of his coins.
If you wish to view the supplement, you can do so at the following link:

http://home.sc.rr.com/stereo3dgames/DVN_Supplement_1.pdf

This supplement is in .pdf format so you need to have the Adobe reader to view it.

BJ: I have heard of an example of this die BEFORE the clash. All obverse markers matched. It actually should be easy to identify with the trails...don't you think?? And..you would be absolutely right that this would be the final proof, because we all know that doubled dies would be seen from the first coin struck...to the last.

Dick · Expert Member

BJ, and BOB, you both deserve a big han, for the hard wiork, and long hours required to make a very interesting post, and Artile in the publication. Excellent work! This is the first MAD-CLASH of this magnitude, that I have ever seen. Thank you both for the experience! This does not leave out the many others who also had comments, etc, pro, and con, to indicare their thoughts, and impressions. A big hand to all of you.
Dick