1857 FE clashed with seated 50c?

[eagames]

Is this well worn 1857 the FS-003 Snow 9?

CPG says this variety may have been created by the night watchman named Eckfeldt, it's obverse is clashed with a seated 50c obverse. The apparent retained CUD is part of the clash.

(does that mean the clash broke the die?)

[KurtS]

Yes!--I'm pretty certain you have the 50c--very nice, I keep looking for one! Here's a shot by Rick Snow showing an overlay. The "retained cud" is actually where the field on the 50c pushed in the area of the devices on the FE obverse die.

(click on this image for a more detailed example)

[eagames]

Thanks Kurt

Even in this low grade I can still see the clash marks above the wing from the arm of the 50c.

[Dick]

Ed, that is a nice find! I would never beklieved that it was done, without the overlay. Those overlays are priceless!
Dick

[eagames]

Dick, I only noticed it by seeing the thing that looks like a CUD and remembered seeing something like it in the CPG.

After looking at those overlays you can see how it missed the design on the 50c and hit the field so it looks like a CUD and how it ends near the tail where the 50c design opens up.

It wasn't a cherrypick, I think I picked it up many years ago because it was a cheap filler and had honest looking wear without damage.

Cool

[GarryN]

That retained cud is a good diagnostic. I can see the remnant of the arm in the photo. Another interesting thought is that Adam Eckfeldt may have had descendants working in the Mint.

Rick Snow also has overlays of the 1857 clashed with a quarter and a double eagle.

[Dick]

Ed, thoise would be interesting to see! I wonder if Rick Snow would post them?
Dick

[KurtS]

If only Rick Snow would visit and comment. He's a wealth of good info on IHCs. But he seemingly has little time to comment on his own forum.

That said, a quick search turns up this image of the S-7 by Rick Snow. I'm sure he won't mind me posting this for educational use, as it's also good marketing for his business.

[eagames]

Realy makes me wonder what Mr Eckfeldt was doing there at night. I wonder if he had access to any planchets or struck and mules. I'm just guessing, it seems he was switching the presses from (or reverse of this) FE cents to 25c, 50c $20 coins. Maybe he wanted mules but I doubt mules had value so maybe he was setting up for a quick run of 25c, 50c or $20 gold coins durring the night. Might even be he started with a lower denomination then tried going for the $20 double eagles!

Lucky thing I don't have a job alone at night in the mint, it would be a big temptation

[KurtS]

According to Rick Snow, the "midnight minter" theory has been called into question. These unusual clashes may have simply been due to an oversight originating from differing die settings between FE and the other clashed denominations. For 1857, the FE was unique in that the hammer die was the reverse, versus the obverse for these other coins. All these clashes interestingly show obverse/obverse or reverse/reverse combinations, and it's been suggested the error arose during switching of the dies. I won't attempt to describe the possible process here, but you can read about it in detail in Rick Snow's Red Book: Flying Eagle and Indian Head Cents, pp. 60-63.

[Dick]

It wouild be pretty far-fetched, to thing there would be anyone working alone in the mint, at ANY hour! I doubt the action was deliberate, and wonder how it could be done, unless one had a good knowledge of, and access to the various planchets, and presses. That would almost require an operator's expertice.
Dick

[GarryN]

There was plenty of nonsense going on at the mint in later years with the creation of patterns and restrikes, so this idea of die clashing indian cents seems like an obscure possibility. I dont know what short term benefit would be expected.

[eagames]

In any case I doubt clashing was intentional.
(even if someone was playing around)

Probably Like Rick suggested it just happened in normal changeovers,

Still it makes the coin's more fun when you hear the theories : )

[GarryN]

sure anything out of the ordinary on coins is interesting and worth studying. If they all looked alike they would get boring.

[coppercoins]

Just to clarify things a little more, I noticed a mention above of "that retained CUD is a good marker"...

It's not a retained cud. It 'appears' to be a retained CUD until you examine it a little closer and realize that the raised area is caused by the clash itself. The outside edge of the 'apparent' CUD is actually the shape of the design in the clash.

Good thread...keep em coming!