1984S Proof RPM ???

pennyhound · Veteran Member

OK, got another one for you guys and gals to check out.

Clink link, check it out and please respond ...

Read question at bottom of that page, about the vertical lines in bottom & top of the S mint mark.

http://pennyhoundshomeweb.com/1984s_proof.htm

pennyhound · Veteran Member

Mechanical (Machine doubled) once ... ya, twice ??? Three or more times or is this something else?

Humm and only on the Mint Mark? No were else on entire coin front or back!

Awaiting on what ya'll got to say about this one.

pennyhound · Veteran Member

Some-one responded from here ... but I deleted it, befor I read it, thinking it was a reply to this post ... eeeck ... please send again (was an email) I see no-one has responded on this post yet ... sorry ... please send email again if you were the one, or PM me. (thanks)

GarryN · Expert Member

Hi Pennyhound, I looked at those photos, those are really good photos, but I still cant figure out what it is within the watery proof background. If it is an RPM it is west, why did you say north?

pennyhound · Veteran Member

When I first looked ... the east, west movement (what appears to be mechanical, movement or chatter ... I'm confused on this, because as noted ... no-were else on die) was distacting so I was in the mind to try and get the 'north, south' curvatures, of the mint mark ... (stacks) ... yes (to me) but is spread to east and west (late night, early morn and trying so hard to get the pictures ... hard to do at times)

I'm thinking these (mint marks) were still hand punched, at that time, weren't thy?

I'm not that experianced in this field (RPM/s) and wanted to see what other/s had to say about it. Or just go from the first punch and look then at were the mint mark it'self lines up, in relation to the mint mark only? to it self and not to the rest of the die? (hummm that makes more since)

How do ya tell, if it's west or east, have to go from were the mint mark/s are suspost to be, then go from there? (Just thinking ... I don't know) on a plain, east, west movement ... changing it now. (good point)

Thanks for your input.

Put up some more pictures for yas to look at ... bottom of that page.

(now I see were I got the north idea ... check out the more pictures I added)

GarryN · Expert Member

yes I can see some movement to the north and saouth actually, maybe its a multiple strike. Bob or Chuck should comment on this one.

lucky2 · Veteran Member

Ok before the big guns get here and blow this out of the water I do not belive you can achive 4 or 6 times chatter when a die strikes. What I do belive however is that if you have a doubled or trippled mint mark that also has a chatter combined with it you could create some unusual results. Which you have here. Now all that has to be done is seperate one from the other.~lucky2

pennyhound · Veteran Member

I did notice some very fine (strike doubling) around the base and front of vest area/s, with what appears to be very minor (on most coins) doubling on all the obverse, devises, Liberty and date area/s (common to most coins if you up the magnification enough) but nothing as what's on the mint mark. This coin is Cameo'ed so it's one of the first strikes also, which may or maynot showup on later die state specimens, how-ever the RPM should. Then there's the area/s of what appears to be the different number of punches in the upper and lower inside loop areas, I counted at least 5 or 6.

That being said:

I'm still scratching my head as to the (very plainly seen strike doubled area to the right (east, with flat shelf-like mirrored area = strike doubled) but the two or three to the left (west) have a rounded area just on the outside areas (around the entier punching ... unlike the one to the east ??? and the sharpe flat area on the west side of the primary mint mark. (looks like it was just punched and pinched off do to no room or being outside were it should have been and just cut off, not very discriptive is it ... lol ... pushed up agianst a no-go area?)

Then there's the question of the RPM itself ... yes I to am awaiting what Bob and/or Chuck have to say about this one myself, thus the posting.

Thanks for the inputs thus far guys ...

Bob P · Site Admin

Sorry guys...normally I wouldn't miss a post where I can at least give an opinion, but I am still dealing with some hurricane issues here, and don't have a lot of time to spend on line. I looked atyour pictures pennyhound (and by the way...they are GREAT PICS) , and to tell you the truth, I am a little bit confused as to what this is. Remember that proof coins of that era were struck multiple times to get to their proof state. There is little doubt that there is some mechanical/strike doubling there. You can actually see strike doubling on lots of proof coins if you look hard enough.
On the other hand, I can't see anyone who is punching the mintmark on the proof die having a whack at it eight times. It definitely looks as if a portion of it could be an RPM though. Maybe the mintmark was struck with such force that it slipped when hammered. That might account for the markings on the left side of the mintmark. It would be difficult to guess at this one and sound like you know what you're talking about Laughing

I would be interested in seeing if another one like this pops up. Sometimes, by comparing a couple of them together, you can see small differences that help explain how it happened.
In review...definitely some strike doubling, but my main opinion is that when the mintmark was punched, it slipped. There is also a slight possibility that the mintmark punch itself was damaged before this punching was made.

pennyhound · Veteran Member

OK, so what next ...

1) Send into a Third Party Grading Service, as is ...

2) Send to an attributer, then third party grading service ...

3) Send to Coppercoins.com befor or after ...

4) See if I can get a FS desination on it ...

What best to do next?

It's not listed anywere, that I can find.

It will wind-up going thru PCGS, in the end.

What would you 'big gunns' do next?

Bob P · Site Admin

Of course...what you do next with the coin is entirely up to you. If you send it to a 3rd party grading service, you will get their grading based on the condition of the coin. There will be no number assigned to it as a variety since there is no attribution yet. I doubt very much that you would be able to get an FS number assigned to it, but I have been wrong before. I will have to let Chuck make the final determination as to if he would be willing for either him, or me to assign a coppercoins number based on the RPM possibility. If it will wind up going through PCGS in the end anyway...that would be what I would do. Let them have at it and see what comes back. An attribution can always be done later, after the coin is slabbed. Coppercoins does not have an agreement with PCGS as of yet to have its numbers put on the slabs.

lucky2 · Veteran Member

Bob
Would not ANACS be more likely to attribute the coin without documentation than PCGS?~lucky2

coppercoins · Site Admin

Even though the photos are nice, in order to make any educated determination as to what caused the doubling on the mintmark of your coin I would have to see it in person.

pennyhound · Veteran Member

Thy would if the coin, were sent in on a "cross-over", were as you say, the number/s or variety, would already be on the slab.

I had called them this morning and talked with them about a possible RPM and ?, on their submittion form and thy indicated, it would be handled as any other "mint error", to add a note as to what I (and other/s) thought was going on with this mint mark.

Then again, PCGS doesn't list (on population reports ... mint errors/varieties ... unless listed in the "RED BOOK") were ANACS and NGC (other's) do.

(I'm tring to go about this, so other/s, may learn from it, 'the proccess ... to follow' ... on new finds.)

So in respect for this site ... I'm going to send, Chucky', a PM and find out when he or you (Bob) can have time to attribute, this coin then, send it to ANACS, and finally send it off to PCGS for a cross-over.

coppercoins · Site Admin

First thing to do is determine whether it is an RPM. If it is, I can send it to ANACS for you after I build a page on it, then they will slab the coin as a plate coin for the book. Not a good idea to send it to PCGS at all, regardless of what else happens. They will not "cross over" coins they cannot deem as varieties from simple references.