1909s Indian Fake or Legit????

Dick · Expert Member

Someone mentioned the notion that it would not be likely that someone would take an '08-S, (1,115,00) and $58.00 in G-4, as opposed to (309.000), and $500.00 in G-4 convert it into a '09S. The value of the '09-S, and the mintage indicates it would be worth the trouble. I have the '08-S, and only paid $15.00 for it in fine.
Dick

eagames · Expert Member

Dick,

That would work but they'd need to gather the 08s for each fake.

It's the same with 1909-S VDBs, they can start with 09-S and add VDB reverses but they can add an S to a 1909-P VDB for a lot less.

Smile

KurtS · Senior Member

ken · Senior Member

I wish to thank all of you for your comments.I was very doubtful that this coin was real.It looks like someone rubbed on stone or something to make it appear worn.It also feels light and doesn't have the correct sound when dropped.The S is wrong as 1 of you has said also.And being 180 degree rotation,I haven't heard of any 09s cents that were or any other Indians for that matter.Now I got to break the bad news to my friend.Have a great day and God Bless.

GarryN · Expert Member

Some one has created a rotated die census. I came across it some years ago. There is no 1909-S cent listed there. The person also includes a hotmail address.

http://www.rotateddies.com/census.htm

One thing I know about the 1909-S is that there are two different mint marks known for that year. But the rotated die makes me tend to believe it is fake. You can email Rick Snow and ask. I have done that before.

KurtS · Senior Member

Garry,
Two different mint marks--or positions? From what I've read, there's one style of mm, but two confirmed reverse dies.

Course, it's all moot on this coin. Weird stuff starts to emerge as I look closer, such as those mushy, dropped out details on the obverse legends. Might happen on an 1870* die, but not 1909 Laughing

I won't show this to Rick Snow...as it's too obvious.

*possibly the worst year of all for strikes. The dies were poorly hubbed and hardened, breaking all over the place--and the planchets were often heavily grained, further obscuring detail.

GarryN · Expert Member

Kurt, I have heard that there are two mint mark styles used on the Indian cent in 1909, I am sure that information came from Rick, but I cannot recall when or where the information came from. Do you have the 1900-1909 reference? Maybe there is something in there. I will look later today.

I have a 1909-S in PCGS 64 red brown. Woodgrain planchet. So its 50-75% red. Very nice coin. The weak feathertips held it back.

Gar

KurtS · Senior Member

Garry--yep, that's where I checked--he only lists one mm style for 1909--well, more accurately a pic which says "the genuine 1909-S mint mark". He goes on to discuss two mint mark positions on the dies.
Course, someone could go to Heritage and spy out a dozen mm on their pics. I only saw those resembling the pic in Snow's book.

coppercoins · Site Admin

I haven't read through all the posts here yet, but can answer the question.

Within a second of seeing the coin I knew it was a struck counterfeit. It's just not right for a real 1909 coin, much less a San Francisco minted coin.

The date is the wrong size and shape, the obverse design has many flaws. The reverse is soft and lacks character. The mintmark is the wrong type. The whole coin is just 'wrong'.

Sorry. It's a fake, no question about it.