Mint's "Report on Coin Variations of Possible Doubling&

[ddorpm]

To All,

I was contacted this morning by Eric Von Klinger of Coin World in regards to the official U.S. Mint's "Manufacturing Report on Coin Variations of Possible Doubling" that was released this past Friday.

Eric requested from me an official response to said report for quoting in their publication.

Basically, to quickly sum up the Mint's report is that they were unable to recreate the cause of what I and other well-known attributers were seeing on Gabe Alonso's 2004-P Peace Medal doubled die obverse. For records purposes -- Alonso's coin is officially assigned in my Crawford Files as 2004-P 5c CDDO-001. It is also assigned in John Wexler's files as WDDO-001 and in CONECA's registry by James Wiles as DDO-001/1-O-IV+VIII (Single Squeeze), CPG has assigned Fivaz/Stanton number as FS-05-2004P-101 by J.T. Stanton and Bill Fivaz, and Ken Potter has assigned it in his Variety Coin Registry (VCR) as VCR#1/DDO#1. Since the Mint were unable to recreate the effect and what they were seeing on Alonso's coin was well within their tolerances, therefore it was concluded as insignificant and not doubling.

Below is my official response to Eric and whether Coin World decides to publish my response and/or parts thereof is of course their perogative. However, I did officially respond to the Mint's report as follows:

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"I have read the U.S. Mint’s report on doubled dies. The report comes as no surprise to me and I can understand their conclusions in regards to being unable to recreate what caused the 2004-P Peace Medal nickel doubled die obverse. However, in not being able to recreate the cause does not negate the fact doubled dies are being produced from the “single-squeeze” hubbing technique. An extensive examination by me and other highly qualified and experienced attributers came to the same conclusion of what we were seeing on Gabe Alonso’s coin was in fact a doubled die.

I have a personal car that periodically when starting the engine will continue to turnover but will not catch. It has done this on numerous occasions. I have had the car towed to various dealers to fix the problem. However, each time the car was taken to a dealer it would start right up and the dealer would call me to say that nothing was wrong with the car. The dealers performed many various test, diagnostics with the computer system, checking belts, nuts, bolts, screws, battery and cables and still were unable to recreate the problem of the car not starting. However, just because the mechanics were unable to recreate the problem of what was causing my car not to start doesn’t negate the fact that I still have a problem. Finally, on another occasion of my car not starting, I called for a towing again. However, the car was in a position that we had to move it into a different location for the tow truck to hook up. Just for the sake of it, I tried to start the car after we had moved it into position for towing. The car started right up! To this day, no mechanics have still been able to recreate what is causing the problem so as in order to be able to fix the problem.

Like my car in that we can’t recreate the problem of it not starting, the Mint also is unable to recreate was is causing the affect we see on Alonso’s doubled die. Still, the doubled die exists. I believe that a tilt and snapping back into correct horizontal alignment combination could be the cause of what we have been seeing on many of the doubled dies being reported on modern-day coinage. The Mint believes what we are seeing is insignificant and falls within specs and tolerances. I believe that this tilt and snapping back into correct alignment at the last second of hubbing squeeze would probably fall within equipment parameters and tolerances.

I am very much relieved from the U.S. Mint’s report. If the Mint were able to find the exact cause then they would correct the problem and therefore doubled dies would be eliminated, at least until time and wear on associated equipment would start the effect over again. Overall, the Mint has more than significantly decreased the release of doubled dies in their coinage production. However, doubled dies are still being periodically produced much like my car still periodically will not start. I will continue to search and report doubled dies and Alonso’s 2004-P Peace Medal DDO will remain in my Crawford Files as a doubled die obverse."

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End my response.

Comments invited.

Regards,
Billy G. Crawford
Author of "A Detailed Analysis of Lincoln Cent Varieties - Volume I"
Co-author of "The Authoritative Reference on Eisenhower Dollars" with John A. Wexler and Kevin Flynn.
Columnist to Numismatic News weekly magazine.

[coppercoins]

Looks to me like you're right on with that statement and analogy. There are still quite a number of doubled dies being released, and I think until the mint finds a different way of manufacturing dies (aside from hubbing them) there will always be doubled dies. One possible method would be to laser engrave the design directly onto the die - being that is an optical method and could be done in one action, I would think that would eliminate doubled dies altogether...it would be expensive though.

I think your comments will be well accepted among CW readers - for some things there simply isn't a clear, concise answer. Modern doubled dies would be one of those things.

[Gabe]

This was my response to Eric when he sent me the report-



In the report, the mint does make experiments with the hubbing process and minting process to achieve a doubled die, but only come-up with machine doubling and blurred letters. No test were made on tilted hub die pairs, which is believed by most experts to be the real cause of the doubled dies. For some reason, the mint did not test that possibility. Maybe it did not cross their mind, or they didnt want to confront the true cause of the modern doubled dies.

I did notice that they seem to undermine the doubling in the 2004P DDO nickel. I was able to notive thickness in the devices with the naked eye, before I used my 16x loupe to confirm the doubled die. According to the report, mint inspectors use 3x to 7x power to inspect minted coins during the normal minting process. For an untained eye, any doubling would be almost impossible to spot. It is unlikely that they will also spot the other forms of doubling recently found in Lincoln cents.


Besides from what I have said above, I dont know what to make out of this report. The mint was unable to find the cause of the doubling in the 2004P nickel, and did not mention any test done on tilted hub die pairs. The report is inconclusive, and in my opinion, hints to more possible doubled dies, because the small amount of coins inspected by the mint during the normal minting process are looked with very low power loups, making the detection of doubled dies very unlikely.

Regards,

-Gabe

[Bob P]

I certainly concur with both of your replies Gabe and Billy, but Gabe, I did notice something on yours that may cause a few headaches if the Mint were to receive your reply.

[Gabe]

I assume that the mint did not test tilted hub die pairs because, in the report, the mint does not mention the possibility of tiled hub die pairs as a possible cause of doubling.

Why would the mint train employees to spot doubled dies when the mint denied the possibility of doubled dies under the single-squeeze system of producing dies?

The just released report doesnt even make clear if the Mint is recognizing the existance of a doubled die in the 2004P Nickel DDO (they examined my coin). They reffer to the coin having a "doubled" image (notice the quotation marks). This could be interpreted as machine doubling, die wear doubling or whatever.

I still believe that mint employees dont have the eye to spot doubled dies. When they look at the overall coin (with low power loupe) they look for cracks, cuds and other types of errors which would be expected. When I started to collect variety coins, I started by collecting RPMs, and when I moved to doubled dies, I had to train my eye to spot them. Just because I was able to spot RPMs, didnt mean that I could automatically spot doubled dies. Finally, single squeeze doubled dies have just been recently discovered, (the 2001 DDO cent discovered by Billy Crawford) and before the discovery, mint employees didnt look for doubled dies when examining coins, because it was their belief, as well as the belief of most of the coin collecting community, that doubled dies under this new system of hubbing were impossible. If they are looking for doubled dies now, it is because of the discovery of doubled dies minted with dies hubbed with the single-squeeze process. These employees have not seen enough (if any) doubled dies to know what to look at.

If the mint is looking for doubled dies in their coins now, the people searching through these coins dont have the experience or eye to spot a doubled die. If the mint is looking for doubled dies, it has started to do so after the 2004P DDO nickel was reported, after they saw it in person and after they published their final report on doubled dies, which was published a few days ago.

Just my opinion.

[Bob P]

Well Gabe, I certainly didn't want to get into an argument with you on this. Obviously, I stoked the fire a bit, but remember as I stated also, that what I wrote was my opinion, and you are certainly entitled to yours, and I respect that. I just felt that it was entirely judgemental for you to assume the mint employees know or knew nothing about doubled dies, and were thrown into the fire, and not told what to look for when they examined coins. If I were a quality control inspector, I certainly hope I knew what I was looking at.
You and I both know the mint will seldom (if ever) acknowledge an oversite or mistake. Yet, you and I both know they exsist.

[Gabe]

Bob,

When I wrote the message I was trying to not seem argumental about the issue. I might have takjen the issue personally, but the mint's opinion on single-squeeze doubled dies has never bothered me. I got sent a copy of the report and was asked to give my opinion on it, and that was my opinion on the report.

You are probably right when you state that I was wrong in second-guessing the quality of the job of the mint inspectors. I know that these guys are proud of their job, because they feel that they are part of history and feel that their job is essential to the nation's economy.

It is likely that the mint employees have prevented monster doubled dies to enter circulation, and as you said Bob, these guys deal with billions of coins, and are bound to miss one here and there. It was not right of my part to question the ability of the mint inspectors to do their job.

I didnt mean to put anyone down, and as I said before, I tried to make my message not seem argumentative.

[Bob P]

Point(s) well taken Gabe. I think we have beaten this horse enough....don't you? Either way...let's do what we do best, and search coinage for the next 'big thing' It's a lot more fun than reading silly reports anyway