1972P DO Question

[Jack]

Is the spread on 1DO 08 wider than 03? I have posted some pictures on the site below and still am not sure which is which or are they both 03.
http://photobucket.com/albums/v50/janelyn/1972P%201DO/

[coop]

1972P-1DO-003
http://www.coppercoins.com/lincoln/diestate.php?date=1972&die_id=1972p1do003&die_state=mds

1972P-1DO-003
LDS
http://www.coppercoins.com/lincoln/diestate.php?date=1972&die_id=1972p1do003&die_state=lds

1972P-1MM-008
MDS
http://www.coppercoins.com/lincoln/diestate.php?date=1972&die_id=1972p1do008&die_state=mds

MDS markers
Obverse
Light parallel die scratches run nW from the top of the 9 in the date. Small die gouges show on top of both T's of TRUST.
Reverse
A die scratch from the rim above the E in UNITED.

By doing an overlay, they look like they are from the same die from the photos. They fit over each other nicely as far as I can tell. But I think they are different die states. The two images on the right show die flow stronger the the first one and the devices are worn a little more. I could be wrong not seeing the whole coin, the die scratches and such, but to me it appears as both being 1972P-1DO-008. But I've been wrong before......
My two Cents worth.... Wish I could find those.......

[Jack]

Coop the coin in the third and forth pictures are 03 LDS with the Die Scratches in 19 of the date as shown here in CC. I have been looking at these coins for some time and have been unable to assure myself that they are not the same coin just different die state.

[Bob P]

Probably the most prevalent die markers for DDO # 8 are the die gouges above the Ts in TRUST. In addition, the die scratches on Die # 3 get more pronounced in later die states. It is difficult to differentiate as the dies are indeed very similar, but you should be able to figure it out. Die 8 is more scarce than die 3...so if you have found a die 8 (or 2), that =is a great find.

[pennyhound]

Jack ...

As I said in this thread, look at the markers, the "T's" and the "dates".

Die 8

the die gouges above both "T/s" in "TRUST" on 8, not on die #3.

Die 3


Die 8 DATE:



Die 3 DATE:


Look at the "IN"/s, die 8 has a slightly, more pronounced spread, than die 3.

Die 3


Die 8


Also notice the die scratch from north west to south east on "G" of "GOD ... on die 3, not on Die 8. Look at the fields of each. (around the date/s & IGWT)

There are quite a few differences ... if you just notice the markers.

Hope this helped you out ... keep those question/s comen.

Happy hunting.

[Jack]

I got the #3 from a Club Member in a trade and he had it looked at at a recent Show here in Orlando. ANAC told him it was an 8. When I got to looking at the coin it is a 3 based on the LDS here on CC with the markers in "19" of the date. I now have another coin that has none of the markers for the #3 shown for MDS and LDS here on CC. It does have one of the markers for #8, the small die gouge over the second T in TRUST. It has none of the other markers for #8 that I can find. I was trying to make up my mind about the coin and would think that if in fact there is a different spread it would be possible to identify the coin from the spread rather than the markers.

[pennyhound]

What about the other markes? Any of them match up ... point well taken though.

The spread ... would be taken into consideration along with all other die markers ... the one that best matches (from all the markers "OBV & REV" would be the telling or calling card)

Would it be possible for you to post (both Obv & Rev) of the coin in question ... of the markers. One this close would most likely have to take all into consideration. (or try looking at different references, that show most if not all of the markers)

"The Authoritive Reference On Lincoln Cents ... by Wexler & Flynn" pg 222 describes the different stages both Obv & Rev of the Die 3.


On Die 8:

Obverse: Die gouge on top of both T/s of TRUST
Reverse: Die scratch from rim above the E of UNITED
_____________________________________________________

On Die 3

Obverse:

... Stage A:

Die scratch from upper E of Liberty.

Two die scratches from the 1 of the date (north-east just above the nine)

Die gouge from the rim below the point of the bust.

... Stage B:

Many die scratches behind head and bust.

... Stage C:

Die scratches from 1 in the date are gone, as are most of the scratches behind the head and bust.

Two die scratches through G of GOD.

Two die scratches between WE and TRUST.

... Stage D:

No die scratches from E of Liberty.

... Stage E:

All previous die markers gone.

Die scratches running in all directions.


Reverse:

... Stage A:

Several die scratches from E of ONE.

... Stage B:

Die scratches from the rim through the N of UNITED, to the Memorial.

... Stage C:

New Reverse die, die scratches from the base of the third Memorial column.

... Stage D:

Die scratch from the top of the Memorial to the lower right of the E of UNITED.

... Stage E:

Many die scratches from polishing.
_____________________________________________________

From the old CONECA Master Listing: Die 8

... Stage A:

Two die gouges on the T/s of TRUST.

... Stage B:

Die gouge on the second T of TRUST is gone - heavy polishing.
_____________________________________________________

From, The Lincoln Cent Doubled Die, by John Wexler; pg 187.

Markers for Die 8

A die gouge (dot) shows on the horizontal cross bar of the first T in TRUST.

A die gouge extends upward from the second T of TRUST.

On the reverse a die scratch extends from the rim over the E of UNITED. Later die states of this variety show heavy polishing of the die which gives a mushy appearance to the doubling and which eliminates the die markers noted.
_______________

Markers for Die 3 ... pg 171 thru 178

... Stage 1

A die scratch runs North from the upper E in Liberty.

Two parallel die scratches run Northeast from the 1 in the date.

A die gouge projects from below the front point of the bust.

... Stage 2

The same as markers for Stage 1 plus many die scratches running East to West in front of and behind the head and the bust.

The Reverse die now has several die scratches twisting Northwest from the E of ONE.

... Stage 3

The die was apparently polished heavily.

The die scratches from the 1 in the date are now gone.

Most of the East-West die scratches are also gone.

Two strong die scratches running South-Southeast through G of GOD remain as do two parallel die scratches between WE and TRUST.

Rough stubble shows from and below Lincoln's beard.

The reverse die is the same but is now rotated about 12 degrees CW.

... Stage 4

The Obverse is the same as on Stage 3 but the die scratches are slightly weaker.

On the Reverse a die scratch now extends from the cap of the first Memorial column across the right base of the N in UNITED to the rim.

Apparently something during Stage 4, the collar jammed and the die was striking broadstrike coins.

The dies may have clashed and when the problem was detected, the dies were removed, polished and returned to start striking Stage 5 coins.

... Stage 5

The maarkers are the same as for Stage 4 except thy are now much weaker due to an apparent polishing of the die.

The die scratch from the E of Liberty is now gone.

A new Reverse die was matted to this Obverse die for this stage.

This new Reverse has die scratches running Northeast from the base of the third Memorial column into the third bay of the Memorial.

... Stage 6

The Obverse is the same as for Stage 5 but the die scratches are even weaker yet.

The Reverse now has a die scratch running to the Northwest from the upper left roof of the Memorial to the lower right tip of the E in UNITED.

... Stage 7

All former markers except the stubble from Lincoln's beard are now gone and replaced with numerous die scratches running in all directions.

There was an apparent clashing of the dies and another polishing to remove the clash markes.

A clash mark joins the upper 9 and the 7 while a heavy die scratch joins the lower 9 and 7.

On the Reverse the die scratches from the base of the third Memoial column are still visable, but the die scratch from the left roof to the E of UNITED is now gone and many new die scratches run in all directions from heavy polishing of the die.
_____________________________________________________

LOL fingures are getting tired ...

as you can see ... many identifiers for die 3, not so many for die 8.

Hope I did you some good with this.

Happy hunting

[Bob P]

Pennyhound...I do believe your fingers would have fallen off by now with all that typing Thanks for taking the time to do that.
I was about to ask Jack the same question (could pictures of both be posted here), but looks like you got to that already.

Jack...we will settle this little dilema for you if you haven't already figured it out. Pics would help us out a lot.

[Jack]

PennyHound
You did real well. The first two will be markers for #3 and they are the only markers I find on the coin. The second two are the markers I can find on the question coin.

[Jack]

PH Sorry had go find the coin pic.

http://photobucket.com/albums/v50/janelyn/1972P%201DO%2003%20and%2008/
IT appears that the second two pic do meet the markers in the information you provided for #8.

[pennyhound]

Think your getting there ...

1st ... yes die 3.

2nd ... yes die 3.
_____________________________________________________

3rd ... ??? (can you show the E in UNITED a bit better) & draw back off the coin a bit. What I see isn't / doesn't look like a die scratch (raised area) it looks more like it's indented, like a hit from maybe another coin or something. Could be just the angle too, that's why it's so hard to try and identify without the coin in hand.

Does it have either of the gouges over the T/s in TRUST.

(See ... Stage B for die 8, "Obverse" above.)

Get another one (about same size for TRUST, showing both T/s)

See if you can get between were you are and the one below. (in size of picture)


_____________________________________________________

4th ... yes die 8.

You getting there.

[Jack]

PennyHound and BobP
I have added some pic to the site.
http://photobucket.com/albums/v50/janelyn/1972P%201DO%2003%20and%2008/

I never had a doubt about #3 however still not sure that #8 is not just an other die State. The markers are I think dead ringers for #8 but still have question about spread.

[pennyhound]

Jack,

If all 4 of the added pictures are from the same coin as in number 3 of the first set (it is of the die 8 ) ... different die states, but is still die number 8.

To even see the difference in the spread of die 3 & die 8, you have to have a very early die state of each example. (VEDS)

With die wear (wearing of the dies) it is almost impossible to tell the difference in the spread, as thy are very close to each other, (but different ... in my option & other/s) which is again, why you have to go to the die markers to confirm, the die in which you have, in question.

Earlier, specialists / hobbyist / researchers / technicians / professionals numismatics' and novices alike have (for the most part) done this for us. Most have allot more, time / money / tools / equipment and experts ... to confirm these things.

We are not the first to ask these very same questions, in regards to these two die/s and die states ... unless you have the money and time to do all the research (as above mentioned), and start over from scratch, to confirm ... we have to just step back and accept it, as so, but then again ... that is what makes this area of endeavors so intriguing to us all ... isn't it?

Here again ... the need to buy research from other/s before us and read to educate ourselves from their experiences and knowledge, we add to ours and wham, we are on our way ... you could be right on ... but proving it, is another thing.

(I've seen many of these, and done allot of research, like other/s have and except, the fact/s as thy are now ... till proven different.)

Happy hunting

[Jack]

PennyHound
Thanks for all the imput you provided for this quest. I think your position that its a 1DO 08 will be the one I take until some one proves me wrong.
Jack

[pennyhound]

Remember:

Persistence ... is the name of the game here ... lol, glad to have helped you out.

May you do thew same for another down the line.

Guess we both glad we didn't give up on each other.

That's what this site is all about.