Need help ID'ing this 52S/S

JRocco · Veteran Member

The only listing I see here for a north spread S/S is the 1952S-1MM-009 , Is this that variety? This coin show a large spread to the north. Is anyone familiar with this die?
http://forums.collectors.com/include/uploadbox/viewfile.cfm?files=1952srpm%2Ejpg

Bob P · Site Admin

It doesn't look like anything I have seen before. It is definitely not RPM # 009. The only published RPM I know of with a wide spread to the north is RPM #002. The positioning of this one does not match. If it is a new variety, it is a very nice wide spread RPM indeed.

coop · Expert Member

It could be a die gouge? It doesn't have any marking of a lower loop of the mintmark. Take a few more images of this anolomly and see if it show more lower part of a RPM. When image opens look at it full screen to get the most of this image. A picture says a thousand words.

One of my educational pieces. You never know what you have till you look at it at a different angle.

JRocco · Veteran Member

Hey coop. This one sure looks like an upper loop with the coin in hand. Here is another angle that I hope better shows the upper curve of the S. But- I sure ain't Chuck or Bob Wink

http://forums.collectors.com/include/uploadbox/viewfile.cfm?files=52sspan1%2Ejpg

coop · Expert Member

The image on the left seems more convincing than the one on the right. But I only see what appears to be going on North of the mintmark. Try taking shots with the coin unside down and see if there is an evidence of a RPM mark between the cross bar & the lower loupe of the mintmark. On a circulated coin anthing could happen. A moving of surface from damage, or tampering buy the last owner, or it could be a real RPM. I just can't say for sure what is going on, on your coin. Seems that if it were a real RPM it would have been discovered by now, but then again the 1913-S RPM just now surfacing. So give me a few more shots to see something that I don't see yet on your coin. I've discovered on some doubled dies, that there was more going on in doubling that I hadn't seen the first, second or even a third time. I found a 1963/3 Proof cent that resembled the 1963-D 3/3. After taking images of the coin I realized it was a 1963/3/3. More doubling/tripleing I never noticed before. It just takes the right shot, to reveal convincing evidence. I hate to be a skeptic, but I really want to be sure. I've found somethings in the past that turned out not what I thought they were. I hope your coin is a genuine RPM, but it might take a BU example to know for sure.

Bob P · Site Admin

It sure looks like it has possibilities to me JRocco. As always...in order to verify it for sure, I would need to see it.
Coop brings up some good points, but the are indeed some RPMs out there where only a portion of the secondary mintmark shows anywhere. An overlay may be required to verify the shape of the secondary 'S', and I will attempt to do one with the pictures you have here once I get back home. I will let you know.
Coop...in case it takes a while for me to get back, and if you have a chance, do you think you can do an overlay with the photos supplied?

JRocco · Veteran Member

I hear what your saying coop, but if I had to see the entire primary MM on all my RPM's I would have to throw 3/4 of my collection away.
http://forums.collectors.com/include/uploadbox/viewfile.cfm?files=57D%2Ejpg http://forums.collectors.com/include/uploadbox/viewfile.cfm?files=57d003%2Ejpg http://forums.collectors.com/include/uploadbox/viewfile.cfm?files=59dcon%2Ejpg

coop · Expert Member

Just trying to keep a balanced view of RPMs. True the ones you showed in your last several images may not show the lower part. But because something is seen, is it something that will be seen on every strike of that die? That is what a variety is. The die makes the RPM/DD on each coin. An error is something that only happens once to thousands of time. Such as a die gouge: In earlier die states the die gouge is not present but after the die gouge starts to be seen for a few thousand strikes it may flatten out the die and then it won't appear again. In the case of a die crack/break/cud every coin from that die state forward are effected usually in the same order as listed. But the earlier die states don't have those marks. So the chances of finding another error/damaged die is not possible on all coins made with that die. But coins made from a RPM/DD are always the same in all die states. I would hang on to your coin till you know for sure what it is. If it is a new discovery then that is what it is. If not, I would still save it as an eductional piece. Not having the coin in hand and just viewing images may not show what I would like to see. Sometimes I have to take several images of a RPM that may be hard to see, so I try and try till I see what it should show. But every now and then I find a coin that the die state has altered the RPM/DD and then you think it is different. At least with RPMs they always have the same location from strike to strike. But sometimes there are two different dies with the same location but the RPMs have different seperations on the RPM, so you realize they are from two different dies. What does all this mean? That even though it may appear a RPM doesn't always mean it is. Then the other side of the coin, not all RPMs have been discovered yet and you may indeed have a new one. So don't give up on it yet. I'd like to see more images, mabe rotating like clock settings, 1:00, 2:00 ETC...... just turning the coin not the ramp you are using.
http://image.inkfrog.com/pix/coop49/Ramp.jpg
By rotating it with a image on each location maybe we can get a better picture of what you have. I know it can be boring to do such, but if I had the coin in hand, I would be doing that. Turning a coin and not the ramp allows the light to hit the coin at different angles. I noticed one that you posted, looked a lot more believeable the the second image.
http://forums.collectors.com/include/uploadbox/viewfile.cfm?files=52sspan1%2Ejpg
So if you can do this that might help. I would mark the tag 1:00, 2:00 so I can see the different angles and can refer back to the image that is in question. Everything you can learn from a coin will help you on others to come. Thanks in advance. The images I pasted here from your images are very impressive.
Here is one I overlayed from a known RPM.
http://image.inkfrog.com/pix/coop49/1946S_1MM_003_ILLUSTRATED.jpg
In the image you can see the upper loupe is almost missing. A small dot for the upper serif and the west side of the loupe is strong. But notice the lower serif position. You can see where the part of the mintmark was affected. I tried the same with your image.
http://image.inkfrog.com/pix/coop49/00_1952srpm_OVERLAY.jpg
I lined up the higher points in the upper serif. I don't know for sure, but the punch looks like it was damaged making a deeper mark in the die, leaving a hight spot to determine where the two punches would have been. It looks like the location for the markings to be a match, but the lower RPM didn't effect the crossbar, but that don't mean that the lower serif wasn't farther North and fit inside the cross bar. The punch is not the same size as the RPM. It would be a little smaller with numerous strikes neccesary to complete the fullness of the RPM. So, see if this helps any. Still would like to see the North part of the RPM. It appears there is a loupe, but not sure. trying different angles would help me see what is going on in that area.

JRocco · Veteran Member

I follow you coop, but sometimes die wear can change the attributes on a coin. A good example of this is the 54D-1MM-001 where a LDS coin only shows 2 of the three MM's. That doesn't mean that a LDS of this coin didn't show all 3 punchings in an earlier die state, nor does it mean that the third punching was never there. Well here are a few more pics taken at different angles and I think these may show the entire MM better (I hope so at least), and thanks coop for taking the time to articulate yourself so well, it is really appreciated.
http://forums.collectors.com/include/uploadbox/viewfile.cfm?files=5222%2Ejpg http://forums.collectors.com/include/uploadbox/viewfile.cfm?files=52223%2Ejpg

coop · Expert Member

Or vise versa on the 1956 D/S The S is seen fuller on LDS coins than in EDS or MDS. Wear has an effect, but the fact remains that the die is a RPM and remains so.
On your images :
#1 I see a marking in a slightly different way than I did on the overlay. It looks like there is a stronger on the top than I've seen on the other images. Now you can see a loupe in the crossbar are Northeast of primary mintmark.
#2 shows the same area of the crossbar but a little stronger in that Northeast crossbar area.
#3 You can see the lower curve in the area above the lower serif of the primary mintmark.
#4 shows the lower loupe of the RPM stronger. So you can see why you need to rotate the coin to see more. The upper loupe is a little stronger so it looks like Northwest to me. Good find! Now find a BU one. LOL Chances of finding another one might be rare, unless they come from the same roll. The only thing that concerns me now is the weakness on the upper serif, in that the width appear to be there on the upper right of the RPM, but real thin on the East part of the top loupe. But it appears to be genuine from what I see. Now you see how hard it is not just to find the RPM, but to identify it and then figure out there is no other match for it and get a number for it.