Error-Trial Piece, Experimental Coin w/ Design Abnormalities

[onekram]

Urgently Seeking Advice!

NEW 6/10/08 (See Coin Album 20 Images)

I am in a dilemma!

I sent my 1873 (closed 3) Indian Head Cent coin to a reputable coin dealer. Two weeks later I received a different coin in return with the same year on a different coin!

The markings on the two different coins “are not” the same, close, but not identical! The coin dealer expects me to believe that with similar markings on two different coins that they are in fact the same coin?

When in fact a blind man can see they are not the same coin. This brings about “valid questions” of thought between the coins.


Coin received is in better condition than the coin sent?

How could this happen? Unless the coins been switched by “error or omission”? Why would I receive a coin in a high-grade condition? Unless it is by “error or omission”, I recently was told that this happens all the time!
NOTICE DISSIMILARITY
1. Darker and a higher grade and in better condition?
2. The “two-tone-color” (vs) a singular darker coin.
3. The “digits / date” compare against each other?
4. The “digits” in awkwardly position (vs) digits in equal horizontal line.
5. Spacing of the digits between each coin.
6. Circulation wear between both coins
7. The “face” of Indian Head characteristics between of both coins
8. The neckline characteristics between both coins

(See image 3, compare the 2 coins and JUDGE it yourself!

What can I do about getting my original coin back from this coin dealer?

This coin dealer is comparing my coin by the way of the inter-net, saying that the 2 coins are in fact the same coin? Because of similar markings on 2 different coins are supposing to be the same! There is no way! Mix-two-tone-color-alloy coin sent in F condition (vs) darker coin received in VF to EF condition?

Coin received, is basic a darker tone coin, all together with little similar characteristic. But no way identical to each other!

There is major difference in the placement of the mix-tone-color or alloy of the coin alone. Also a list of numerous difference of the unusual identifiable characteristics that are not seen on another coin, as it is trying to be implied to be the same coin. By pointing out a like marking on the coin which, are not identical. This only supports that the coin is extremely valuable. I’m speculating, that my coin could be “one of a kind”, an experimental coin, an extremely valuable such as a “fantasy Piece” or trial piece.

Why replace a Fine Grade two-tone-condition coin for a higher grade V F to EF condition coin. It doesn’t make any sense?

I’m urgently seeking a "coin expert" maybe in the field of "experimental or trial pieces / coin" or who may see things of a new light that I have been missing.

Since, I no longer have possession of my original coin. I’m seeking a preliminary “Written Description” of my coin, with a prediction of its “True Value” in hope of getting it back.

What Special coin expert in the field of Experimental Coin, Trial Piece or even Abnormalities, on the inter-net, could correct this coin dilemma? Who is able to shed light of disclosure of this coin either by “error or omission” and to make right what went wrong?

Is there any unconventional coin expert who could send me "written description" of my "two-tone color mix of alloy"-1873 (closed 3) coin along with a “range of value” of my coin? I believe this coin is "ONE OF A KIND" and could be worth a fortune? Please help us?

Could any special coin expert in the field of Trial Piece, Experimental Coin or Design Abnormalities achieve such a challenge. By a written disclosure of “two” different coins by the way of the inter-net, from a posting of an image of coins, without having the items in their hands for this urgent request? Is there any Doctorate Coin Expert?

The final objective: after receiving the correct coin back, next is to achieve successfully the needed # Authentication, # Description, Dimension, Gage & Mix-Alloy of Coin # Value of coin with complete documentation of record of it being an experimental piece.


Key to my coin:

The Venezuela 1 cent coin design has "similarity" to the US Indian Head Cent. I compared my coin to both the Venezuela & US coin, trying to figure out why my United States copper coin, has the similar Venezuela Design on both sides of my coin!


Along with numerical abnormalities that are found on "two" different US coins that are from the year of 1873 Indian Head Cent. The 1873 coin has both the "open & closed digit- 3".


It seems that the "digit- 1" within the 1873 coin, It also appears that the "digit 1" is from a totally different US coin altogether?


Facts reveal that the "thickness" of the "digit-1" has been mistakenly placed on my coin "1873 closed 3" coin. In fact, it should have been on a "1873 open 3" coin!


I believe my coin is a trial piece or an experimental coin as follows!

I uncovered some really interesting "Conflicts & Design Abnormalities" on my coin.

Comparing them and relating the "conflicts" to the US Indian Head Cent design Series over all. Also comparing my coin to "The Venezuela 1 cent coin design characteristics".

These "two" different coin share similarity and characteristics within their design! In doing this there are countless design ABNORMALITIES on both sides of my coin!


(Ref: to coin) 1873 (cl3) Indian Head Cent-Variety 2-copper-Nickel, Oak Wreath with Shield Coin. "Condition F", mix-color or mix alloy is a seen characteristic.


(COIN BOOK) The book A guide to Flying Eagle and Indian Head cents" does list two varieties in the "1873 cent, a closed 3 and an open 3" coin. (Note) Permission granted by Whitman Publishing, LLC Company to use excerpts in the Whitman Book from John Appuhn Anderson Press, Inc. Whitman Publishing, LLC. Author: Rick Snow, Copy right 2007, ISBN 079481783-1.


Compared my coin to the US Indian Head Cent Series?
Also my coin has Design Characteristics Abnormalities?
Compare my coin to the Venezuela Coin?


Is my Coin an Experimental Coin or Error?


Front side of coin:

Comparing other said coins within the series of Indian head cent coins; which brings about valid questions that supports the coin to be an experimental or trial piece?


Viewing the coin, a "two tone color" or streaky alloy of the coin with wear is on the coin, maybe from improper cleaning or improper mixing of alloy?


Design characteristic abnormalities, compare my coin which has a ("short / stubby neckline extremely & unusually short ") to any 1873 Indian Head Coin on record in, (open or close 3" coin). Also compare it with Business Strikes or any coin in the Indian Head Series of any year! In the entire U.S., Indian Head coin series the "neckline design" on the coin comes to a clean sharp end tapered design.


(Note) The headdress of my coin has similarity characteristics of the Venezuela design.

Then compare it to the US coin design. The headdress appears on my coin a fraction smaller in shape design like the Venezuela design headdress.

(Note) There is similarity in my coin, check the ("facial features") of the US Indian Head cent coin. It appears fraction larger than the US series coins from any year.


Observe the spacing between each digit on my coin.

For example; look for the spacing or measurement between the "year / date" on my coin, 1, 8, 7, 3. Notice that the digits are not uniform horizontally on the coin. Each "digits" are awkwardly positioned. This reflects each "digits" was individually stamped on the coin with an experimental apparatus "date stamp".


How to explain how each digits of that year "1-7-8-3" on my coin is not on a even horizontal line? Also there are numerical abnormalities with the individual digits on my coin.


THE DIGIT NUMBERS ARE THE KEY:
Compare the digits / number to any coin in the series! When comparing my coin to the other coin.

KEY to coin Question ?
If they are the same coin, then why is the coin I received in better condition then the coin I sent? The coin I received is in better condition how can that be? Your able to read “liberty” on the other coin? They are not the same coin!


"Conflict" & "Design / Numerical Abnormalities" are seen on my coin. Notice that the first Two, "digits 1 & 8" position on my coin do not correspond to what the books give as disclosure. The coin book states below for an "1873 open or close 3".


(Note) 1873, Close 3 = Book picture reveals the "digits 1 & 8", do not have any contact with each other that there is an equal spacing between the digits.


(Note) 1873, Open 3 = Book Picture reveals the "digits 1 & 8," are connected to each other awkwardly leaning, slightly at the base of each digit which causes a connection of the "digit 1 & 8" to each other.


My coin Image reveals a conflict with the first two "digits 1 & 8".

(Note) 1873, Closed 3= My coin image reveals that the digits "1 & 8" are touching each other at the base of each digit. Whereas the coin-book reveals that is suppose to be an 1873 open 3’ coin.

The Image of my coin first 2 digits ("1 & 8") are in conflict with last 2 digits on my coin which is numerical abnormality?

Viewing my coin image (see below), (the first 2 digits "1 & 8") then COMPARE it to the book on page 123 & 127. There is a conflict with my coin Image and coins of record on page these pages within in the book?

THIS IS THE "KEY TO THE COIN" ALSO A "NUMERICAL CONFLICT!

THE POINT THAT I AM MAKING IS THAT THE LAST DIGIT ON MY COIN is a “Closed 3” ACCORDING TO ALL THE COIN SERIES THE COIN IS AN “OPEN 3” COIN. THIS IS THE KEY.

ACCORDING TO THE COIN BOOK THE DIGITS , ("1 & 8") TOUCH AT THE BASE OF EACH DIGIT, WHICH INDICATES THAT THE COIN MUST BE "open 3" COIN.

MY COIN THE (two-tone color) Digits, (“1 & 8”) TOUCH AT THE BASE, BUT MY COIN IS A CLOSED 3 coin.

NOTICE MY COIN ("last digit "3") IT REFLECTS ON MY COIN THAT IT IS A SOLID CLOSED "3 digit. ".

I BELIEVE THAT MY COIN IS A “ONE OF A KIND” BECAUSE OF THIS “numerical conflict!

My coin has (two-tone color), the digits, ("1 & 8") touch at the base which indicates according to the book that this coin is an "open 3" coin. Now take a look at my coin ("last digit "3") it reflects on my coin that it is a solid closed "3 digit. ". This is an example of a "numerical conflict"!


Whereas, in the "coin book" it indicates that the (digits "1 & 8") do not touch at the base of each other. The image in the book states it is for a ("close 3 digit") coin also seen in any coin within the entire series of Indian Head coins!


(Note): In the book on page 123. Check the difference of thickness in "digit 1" in the book that is using as a reference, notice that the "Open 3" coin has a "wider digit 1".
That same "thickness in digit 1" appears on my coin as a "closed 3 digit".


(Note) My coin, "Digit 1" is extremely wider than what it should be, this is an unusual abnormality for this coin. Compare this abnormality of my coin in the coin book, also on record even in the ("open or closed 3's")! compare it with business strike coins! It appear as if this "digit 1" came from a different series of coins altogether? In the coin book "digit 1" has a slight lean to the left for a "1873 Closed 3" coin.

(Note) The Image of my coin, you will notice that the first "digit 1" does not have a lean to the digit. The "digit 1" of my coin is vertically straight. This reflects another numerical abnormality


(Note) The Image of "my coin", reflects the "digit 1" in a vertically straight alignment along with the abnormal short stubby neck on the Indian Head coin. The date / year of the coin series is always centered directly under the neckline of the Indian head.

Location of date on the coin:

"1873" date,/ year is position further left on my coin than any other series in the Indian Head Cent Coins or (business strike coins).


(Note) The Image of my coin reflects the "digits 1873 (cl3)" have been placed on an awkward uneven position on the coin. Whereas the coin books reflects the numerical digits are placed in a horizontal uniform look.


Viewing the image of my coin, the second digit "8" is much larger than any business strike coin or any coin in the Indian head series. The "digit 8" it self appears to have come from a different larger coin series? Viewing the walls of digit "8" it is much thicker presenting an arty look to the date. This is uncommon in the Indian Head series.

The image of my coin, the third "digit 7" which has a larger teardrop bottom at the base of the "digit" which has an unusual characteristic design.


"Digit 7", has other Numerical Abnormalities


(Note) "Digit 7 " drops below "digit 8" itself. There is a major pronounced drooping that appears to be a straight line from the tip of "digit ". In front of the "digit 7" that appears to be a straight line, hanging down from the top left position of the "7". "Digit 7" appears to have a "crown tip" or "point" in the middle of the "digit".


Viewing the last "digit 3" on my coin which drops below the "digit 7". Note: Compare the 2 coins and notice the difference between the "digits" 3. My coin digit 3 drops further down than the other coin. Also the "digit 7" has more of a tear drop bottom than the other coin digit 7.


(Note) The image of "number 3" appears to have a numerical abnormality. The "closed 3" is much "tighter" in design than what the coin book reflects. It is Reflecting less space available within the (area of the "number 3" itself) also the digit appears to be cut at the top.


Compare the "FONT" the size or face of the image of my coin that has an arty appearance about it. It is Unusual to other Indian Head cent coins within the series.



Back side of my coin:


Design Characteristics Abnormalities compared to the Venezuela Coin & US?

Another abnormality is the "font, size and "thickness" in the "print or design" of "one-cent" the wording that reflects slight characteristic difference.


Top of the Shield -design on my coin is not equal in measurement in the "two" groves in design. It appears to have unbalance characteristics, where the "grove" is placed in the shield? The left side grove is longer than the right. This is an Identical character of the Venezuela 1 cent!


Unbalance design in the angle of the shield. I see (two) angles at 45 degree. then compare these "two" angles in length against each other.


(Note) that the Right side angle on the shield is longer than the left side angle?


Viewing my coin compare the "lettering" / "PRINT" / "FONT" / SIZE of the "one cent". Notice the bottom base design of the "E" that is nearly closed on the coin! Compare the "FONT", the type of one size in the "N". Review the "N" at a slant ( "\ " ) it appears thicker in design like that of the Venezuela Coin.


Compare two different alphabet "E against each other" Coin Book reflects an identical alphabet "E" in the Indian Head Cent Coin series.


(Note) The "FONT" alphabet of the "one cent" it is extremely thicker than any coin in the series or business strike Indian head coin.


(Note) Compare the "Top "E" with the "Bottom E", characteristics they are not the same. Notice the "Top E" with "Bottom E" design, notice the spacing difference!


The Wreath design on my coin is much wider in thickness the artistic development of the coin is like the Venezuela 1-cent. Then compare the US coin wreath, which is much thinner in design.


The Ribbon at the base of my coin, it is stubby and short like the Venezuela 1 cent coin! Compare US coins ribbons they are much thinner with a narrower design that tapers to a long sharp point.


(Note) Compare the ribbon artwork design at uspatterns.com. then you can see the Venezuela 1 cent style "short".

Compare the "(top on the "shield") of any 1873 coin with any other date coin within the US Indian Head Coin series. You will see a slight characteristic design difference. The shield is not identical but close to other coins in this series.


(Note) COMPARE THE TWO DIFFERENT COINS AGAINST EACH OTHER

The mix-tone coin on the (L) is in a lower grade than the coin on the (R ).

The coin on the L is no way the same coin on the R. The darker coin on the Right “digit 1” has a slight lean to the left. Whereas the Coin on the Left “digit 1” is in a straight vertical line, also the first digit 1 is much larger than the other coins first digit 1.


Finally:
Compare the condition of my coin the mix-alloy to the coin received!


Notice the neckline of both coins, they are not the same in shape & size. The neckline of the coin on the left is thicker.

Coin on the Right is a Different coin:

The coin on the right neckline comes to a normal taper design into a sharp end. As if there is a shirt collar line or design added at the base of the neck. Coin detail is much sharper and clearer in an “EXTRA-FINE CONDITION”. There is a much clear detail of the Indian Head Feathers along with the readable “LIBERTY” on the Headband around the head of the Indian Head coin.
There is more detail seen on the Eye, Nose, Mouth, Ear and hair round the ear and base of the neck. Also a lot more detail seen around the design of each of the Feathers on the Headband. There appears to been an attempt to make known of a change of color on the darker coin with an unknown chemical to lighten the coin. There is “zero” streaky two-tone area on this coin anywhere!

Coin on the Left –two-tone condition is a “FINE CONDITION” which has less detail on the coin, there has been more circulation of this coin then the darker coin on the right. Detail is not seen on the two-tone coin like the darker coin. Notice the “clean neckline} on this coin, there is “zero” indication of any kind of an extar collar line on this coin. Notice the two-tone streaky area that crosses the nose then down along the cheek along the jaw area of my coin. There is no indication of any two-toning on the darker coin.


Two coins compared to each other are not the same coin. A blind man can see it. The condition of both coins: # (Left )in Fine Condition (vs) # (Right ) Extra Fine Condition are not the same coin. The year of the coin is the same. But the abnormalities of the digits are not the same even the detail Characteristics of the two coins are very much different.

Note: It appears that there has been 2 surface markings added to the coin to make the coin look like it is the same coin?

Note: The circulation wear of both coins is different all together, that can not be changed, it is a different issued all together. Compare the circulation and detail on both coins to one to the other, which are different!


Is my coin is an Experimental Coin or Error?

I appreciate any assistance that you may offer.

Thanks for your time!

onekram

This Image SHOWS 2 DIFFERENT COINS / No Markings on Darker Coin. Notice the L coin "Digits-Date" 1 & 8 touch at base of each other. R coin "Digits-date" 1 & 8 DO NOT TOUCH EACH OTHER
http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll124/onekram/MarkingsoncoinDONOTMATCH.jpg

Notice the small Marking on my coin ALSO notice the digits are awkwardly on coin. Digits 1 & 8 touch at base, it should be an OPEN 3 COIN. INSTEAD it is a CLOSED 3 COIN.

http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll124/onekram/Copy3ofUseImagetobepublished.jpg

Notice there is no marking on Darker Coin ALSO view the Digits are NORMAL on this coin.
http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll124/onekram/TryingtoshowtherearenoMarkingsonDar.jpg

CROP IMAGE OF 2 DIFFERENT COINS: Note: compare the "digits 1 & 8 on two tone coin = "Closed 3" - coin should be an "OPEN 3". Darker coin digits 1 & 8 do not touch it is an "CLOSE 3". The coins are not the same. (SEE COIN ALBUM)

http://s287.photobucket.com/albums/ll124/onekram/onekram%20Coin%20Album/

[GarryN]

1. Why dont you just ask for your coin back?

2. I dont know where the heck you are, but if you dont want to ask for your coin back, walk the coin you have to a reputable coin dealer and ask the coin dealer for his/ her opinion. Someone here can direct you to a coin dealer if you tell us where you are.

[coppercoins]

Sorry, I don't have time to read the book, but I did take a look at the images.

If you are stating that the washed out scan of the coin on the left is different from the scan of the coin on the right in the images that contain two coins, you're respectfully wrong. Those images are of the same coin.

[KurtS]

I wish I could process the writeup you provided, but on the basis of the photos I'd also agree that's the same coin. There's no plausible way to reproduce the planchet graining evident on that coin (imo).

[coppercoins]

To the originator of this thread:

Please discontinue with taking your plight out on our members through private messaging. I have now received complaints about this, and would like to see it stop.

You are obviously very passionate about your subject, albeit in my opinion very far off base. Nobody else here is as passionate as you are about the subject, and nobody is going to take the time to read a book about it. Please shorten your questions, if you have any more, and please discontinue privately messaging people who do not want to hear from you.

Your images that contain pairs of images of coins show beyond a doubt that the 'two' coins on each side of each image is indeed the same coin. Period. It's obvious, end of story. The type of striations in the planchet, the color of the striations, and the exact position of said striations are impossible to have on two coins in exactly the same pattern. They are like snowflakes, it just doesn't happen that two are exactly the same.

So...if you're trying to get someone here to agree with you that someone switched coins on you with the evidence you've provided, it simply isn't going to happen.

Thank you.

The Forum Owner.

[coppercoins]

This is one of the images to which I refer...the two obverses imaged in this small composite are of the same coin....if that's what you are asking.

You want an expert...okay, I'm an expert. Your images prove you wrong.

[onekram]

A closer Image of the Difference of the Digits. L coin digits 1 & 8 touch at base. R coin digits 1 & 8 do not touch.

Notice: There is NO MARKING on Darker coin in secondary field!
[img][/img]

[GarryN]

I believe the digits are in the same position if they touch at all. It is only less noticeable on the darker coin. The images are fuzzy anyway. If by closer inspection the digits are not in the same position then there is no reason to conclude that the coin is "unique"

[KurtS]

Regarding the allegations above: if you haven't already, Read this. Read and draw your own conclusions why this person is looking for a "coin expert" to side with him. Suffice to say, no advice should given--at all.

[Dick]

I will not offer advice, but I suggesyt tou take it up with the dealer where you sent the coin. There is where the solution lies. Enough is enough!
Dick

[GarryN]

In the link above, Rick Snow said the issue is done, so thats good news.

[Dick]

I agree!
Dick

[KurtS]

[GarryN]

yea I kind of agree that the thing is so creepy that it should be removed, but maybe it should stay just as an example to learn from.

[Bob P]

I am of the opinion that this post, and all attached references and other data should stay. My rationale is that this can be used as a tool to see what some folks will try to do to try and get one over on others in this hobby. The individual he tried this with is a well respected expert in the field. In the end, his expertise and good name will take care of this sorry situation. I am surprised it went as far as it did, but these things and the hobby itself will take care of their own.
This post also gives you a user name of someone you need to keep away from.
All of the experts have levied their opinions on this guy already. he never got what he was looking for....on any of the forums he posted this on.
Remember that this is a public forum. If this post causes that much stress to some folks, I will discuss with Chuck about removing it. Until then, please just use it as an educational tool.