UNUSUAL 2000 LINCOLN CENT; DDO and Trails

wavysteps2003 · Expert Member

Yes, I bought a coin on Ebay, every once in a while I will, if all seems right with the seller. And this one was unusual.

First, it did have trails on the obverse, so it is now listed as 2000P-1DEO-001T.

Second, it had these starnge marks on Lincoln's neck.

They were not a die clash, nor were they associated with the trails and the seller had more of the same die.

Did an overlay using this B/W picture.

Which when rotated 30 degrees fit in very well in this location.

I have sent these pictures out to experts in our field to see what they think. As for me, I am 99% sure that it is a doubled die.

Any comments would be appreciated.

BJ Neff

Dick · Expert Member

BJ, from what you say, and show, I have to express my amazement that you or anyone else have picked up on that detail. I, for one, would NEVER have noticed the similarity in details! Good show! We need more folks like you, here. Excellent photos, as wel. l My congratulations.
Dick

Russellhome · Veteran Member

Very nice eBay find. I've yet to find any cent with the doubled ear or beard. There's nothing wrong with an ebay purchase from time to time -- so long as the photos and/or seller repuation are sufficient. We can't all find everything.

Rhubarb · Senior Member

BJ,

I saw this very coin on ebay. I thought about it for a while then let it go. I'm glad to see that it was a worthy coin to purchase. Congrat's

David

Dick · Expert Member

I don't buy individual coins on ebay. Every time I tried, I was outbid, or it was just what they said, except they didn't say also that it was a "garage mint". I haven't been at this error coin, and variety specialist long enough to have been hurt, badly. Hurt, yes, but not bad enough to have a radical effect. Sort of a "win some. lose some" thing. Kind of like playing the slot machines. You win some, you lose some",. the only difference, the slots are what they are.
Ebay sellers. Best take what they say with a 50 lb. block of salt!
Dick

murphy · Senior Member

Good eye BJ. It looks like a DDO to me too. You did well to grab this one.

wavysteps2003 · Expert Member

Just thought that I would share the news. John Wexler has agreed with me and this is a doubled die. He has listed it in his files as 2000, WDDO-001.

As for the class, it will probably be a Class VIII, which is an ill fit for I do not think any tilting came into play with this more than odd doubling.

More than likely, it was an aborted first attempt at hubbing that left a partial impression. Since that area that the doubling appears on is a low spot (recessed) on the working hub, when the second hubbing occurred, that area was not squeezed out (affected) by the continuation of that complete second hubbing.

As to the angular diffence from the primary to the secondary images, we have seen offsets of 30 degrees, which this is. This may have occurred when the unfinished die was taken out of the hubbing press, inspected and then returned, with a new orientation.

This is a unique die and coupled with the fact that it has "trails" from LIBERTY makes it just that more interesting.

You all have a great New Year.

BJ Neff

Rhubarb · Senior Member

BJ,

The seller of your coin has 2 more for sale. I noticed that the price has gone up.

Rhubarb

JRocco · Veteran Member

Hey BJ,
Interesting coin and great find.
I came across several Lincoln's with some interesting vaguely similar markings in different areas around Lincoln's bust. Do you think these may be from a similar cause as your piece?

A closer look

wavysteps2003 · Expert Member

John - It is hard to say what the marks are. When I study the above coin, which by the way was discovered by Steve Colman, it took me about six hours to find the fit of the beard to the marks on the neck.

One thing that must be taken into consideration is the postion of the doubling, which is near the center. On your example, the marks are from the collar, further away from the center point.

However, having said all that, if you would like, I'll take a look at it if you would care to send it to me.

BJ Neff

JRocco · Veteran Member

Hey BJ,
I will see if I can hunt it down. I know there were several of these from the bank roll. As long as I can find it, I'll shoot one over to you.
Thanks for the offer.
John

ddorpm · Advanced Member

Those that are keeping track of where these are being found, I was fortunate to come across one from a circulated roll a couple days ago.

On the specimen I came across one can see additional weak remnants pointed out by arrow #6 that is widely separated from the main cluster of 5 extra beard strands. I conducted an overlay that is rotated 30 degrees and superimposed onto the suspected area of origination. All the strands match to include the widely separated strand #6 which can be seen located in the chin area.

wavysteps2003 · Expert Member

Billy - now that you pionted it out, I also can see it on one of the coins that I have. The other has a weaker strike and does not show that sixth part.

Can you supply us with your die number on this variety? And also the Class? Both John Wexler and James Wiles have listed it under a Class VIII, which I feel does not fit, however, since neither (John or James) use the Class IX, I suppose that is the closest Class description it could be.

Thanks Billy.

BJ Neff

ddorpm · Advanced Member

I have it assigned in my files as 2000 1c CDDO-001. I believe it could likely involve a hybrid with a Class I and VIII. However, I tend to think the Class I rotation is not at the exact center of the die but rather somewhat off of center towards the northeast. If one places the rotation point northeast one can visualize the extra beard remnants swing over to the neck area and align as we see on this 2000 cent.

One problem I'm having is that I'm not sure if this is one continuous event during the single-squeeze process or if there was some possible aborted hubbing and then re-applied. The extreme rotation is consistent with other doubled dies I have seen on the Lincoln cent reverse near the statue area. For example below is one on a 2000-D cent (in my files as CDDR-002) with extreme rotation. One can see the remnants of the 6th and 7th columns. Of particular note is that the 6th column remnants are slightly curved which might lead to a continuous single-pass event. Of course the conical shape of the die blank could also be playing a factor. Greater the distance in separation the further down onto the slope of the die blank to be hubbed.

The second example I have in my files as 2005 1c CDDR-026 also exhibiting an extreme rotation. However, on this coin, reported by Ken Russell, we can seen the extra knees along with the 7th column rotated in alignment.

To say the least, these make for interesting study.

wavysteps2003 · Expert Member

Thanks Billy for the information on your numbering of this die.

When I first looked at the spread and rotation of the secondary to the primary impressions, I questioned the validity of what I saw. However, as you pointed out, there are other dies that have out landish rotations, up to 45 degrees, between the primary and secondary impressions.
John Wexler also pointed this out when I initally sent him my conclusions on this die.

I tend to believe that this is an aborted first hubbing that was inspected, repositioned in the hubbing press and continued with a second hubbing. I can not put together a scenario for a continuos action hubbing in this case, especially with the rotation of 30 degrees.

To be honest with you all, it maybe time to re-think the Classes of doubled dies when they are compared to the single squeeze hubbing system.

BJ Neff