DDR?

Teryble · Veteran Member

It doesn't match the examples, but I'm seeing double again! Only showing the most extreme, is this doubling?
T

Dick · Expert Member

Maxi, er-, Teri, do you want the truth? Maybe this will help a little. When you have a doubt about letters being doubled, as in hub doubled, it ismy understanding that ther size, width, or height, will be slightly more in the direction of the separation, if in fact irt is a hub-doubled strike. Not so with MD. The letters will all be the same size, height, or width. by comparing the letter, Or number, in question with another identical letter, or number on the same coin, you will note the similarity. The "apparant "doubling, due to the lateral shift of the metal will create an optical illusion of a wider letter, etc If this is not accurate, someone p[lease correct me, and , at the same time help Us, Maxi, and dick, understand what is the right way to make a GOOD determination. Thanks,
Dick

Teryble · Veteran Member

Jeeze o peeze, just once I would like to here nice find. The T & E, I thought 4 sure. I thought I was seeing notching the T.I have yet to find a notch. I just threw in the C 4 Maxi.
Hey Dick, I got Lots of 44's P,D & S', also 69 D's.....Is there anything interesting I should look 4? Pr'bly not, thats y I have lots Question

Thx 4 input, u put very eliquently....Not like CD Razz

.....u know I'm only joking & really do appreciate & value the input, I just get deja vu. always in school...Tery r u paying attention,I'm trying, just not getting it. how do u tell the difference of these (1 mine & 1 not)..Just trying to understand.
Tx,T

Dick · Expert Member

Teri, look at the gteen "T". Notice it is "sitting on a very flat surface? It looks as tho it has been moved slghtly downward, but mostly to the right. that flat shelf-like area is what gives it the name, "shelf-doubling", or MD, Machine-doubling. It was done with a lateral movement, as apposed to the doubling, IN the working die.. The motion is vertical with hub doubling, BUT, the doubling is already in the die! MD is always lateral and is not present until after having been struck. If you could look across the side, and flat surface, you would note that the part of the letter, (in this case, is a hair HIGHER than another identical letter. This is due to the compression, lateraly. THis is generally true for most MD, however, in extreme cases, the letter will be wider, but very noticably so. You cant miss that type. Look at these:

all the same coin, and massive MD. maybe these will help you tell the difference. If you want to "lift them", for your use, you can right click on the photo, and select "photo properties", and copy them to My Documents, or where ever you choose. That way you can compare.
Dick

Teryble · Veteran Member

So OK, you are saying the green T Is maxi? What about the other?

coppercoins · Site Admin

Looks like an early-mid 80s zinc reverse there. I would have to say initially that it matches the characteristics for hub doubling on those couple of letters, but the problem is that it matches only on a couple of letters. Doubling like that should show on much of the coin if it's hub doubling.

Kind of a toss-up, but I would have to go with "no" on this being a doubled die without seeing the coin.

Teryble · Veteran Member

K, I'm not trying to be difficult just trying to understand. The green T came from the twins below this posting & was affirmed to be DD, but the R in the pic shows no signs of doubling to me? So I guess my question is how does that difffer from mine?
actually mine is 1983 Thanks for your knowledge & patience,
Teryble

Dick · Expert Member

Now, I have a question: Can a Hub-doubling, and a machiine-doubling occur on the same coin, and is it common? Chuck? thanks for your imput, and pttience. The more I learn, the less I find I know. One step forward, two backwards! Move over, Maxie, here comes "dixie"! After thinking about my question, I believe that the answer will be< "yes", because it would be determined by which class of doubling, Right?
Dick

eagames · Expert Member

I can answer most of this.

The T Teri posted that's from the 48-S is a hub doubled die.
First of all the T is the normal width (on the vertical bar) and the doubling is in addition to it so combined it's vertical bar is wider then the normal T. But that's not the only reason to be sure it's a DDO, the reason to be sure is that that die also has an RPM and the RPM is a super marker for that die. Since hub doubling will show on every coin from that die so once you see the T plus the RPM you know it's that same die. That rules out strike doubling.

On the other one.... Firstly when you post a pic you need to tell the date because it matters. That way if it's hard to tell people can compare to known ones for the year, for example if you posted the T on that 48-S I would ask you to look at the S to verify if it's that known DDO/RPM combo.
From looking at yours I can tell it's a zincoln and looks like it's from the 80s. It does not look like it added width (like Dick said) but it's tough to be sure but since it does not match any DDO that I know of and only shows on some letters so all of that combined makes me say it probably is not a doubled die and more likely it's strike doubling. One KEY thing is until you know how to tell the differance you can in 90% of cases tell by looking at known DDOs for a year. Of course theres a chance you find something new but that chance is smaller, it gets you 90% on track to go by the existing listings then study the ones that you aren't sure of.
Notching is not the same as shelfs, shelfs are often only on one side of the letter, to be a notch requires a shift in 2 directions so you see a notch out of the corner of the letter. Still be careful because on some some DDOs it might look like a shelf if it only shifted one direction but you should still see added width (like that 48-S T) and in other areas you might see doubling that helps answer what it is.

Dicks question, YES you can get strike doubling on a coin that is also a doubled die. Since strike doubling is random (not on every coin from that die) you could also find the same DDO without strike doubling but each one will have the same hub doubling.

Lastly... Don't feel bad Teri! That zincoln you posted falls into the 10% categary of ones that don't match a listed one and look tough to be sure of what exactly it is so it's a good one to post and get inputs and even put aside if most people say it's probably not a DDO. Next year maybe you'll see something similar listed and want to take another look to see if yours matches.

Hope that helps Smile

Dick · Expert Member

Ed, a second ? Is the "green "T" the '83, or '48-S? Is the small copper colored in the corner the 48-S? I ask because, although it was mentioned, I don't recall seeing it. (Maybe on a previus page). Teri, now you see the "why a date" is so mportant. (Pun intended).
Dick

eagames · Expert Member

Dick,

The green T is from a 1948-S 1DO-001
(a doubled die)

Not sure where the other small T pic is from.

http://coppercoins.com/lincoln/diestate.php?date=1948&die_id=1948s1do001&die_state=mds

The original post was an 83 that's probably strike doubled.

I think Teri's point was that if you just looked at the T of that 48-S you might think it's from the same cause as the 83. The long answer is:

1)On the 83 I can't say it added to vert width but on the 48-s it did make it wider.

2)If you look up existing varieties and see nothing like the 83 but for the 48-S you see 1DO-001 and it matches and you can verify it since that DDO is also has an RPM you can use as a great marker. (this get's everything known but it could be a new variety but unlikely so you had a 90% chance the 83 is not a doubled die)

3)This is the tricky part! Why it shows only on the T of that 1948-s is that that die is a class 3 DDO. That means the doubling was not caused by any shift (so you might not see anything on any other are). The class 3 is caused by the die being hubbed with 2 different designs and apparently the only diff between the 2 designs that you see is on the T of trust. So here's why the date's matters, you need it to look up existing ones and to know the yearly qwerks of each year like wide letters on a 1982 or close to the rim on a 68.

The reason to expect doubling to show in more areas (than one letter or a few is that on most forms of doubled dies it would show in other places. So that rule helps. BUT the class 3 like the 48-S is an exception because it's class 3, very few doubled dies are class 3 so the other rule is likely to work.

Maybe the way they knew the 48-S was a doubled die even though it only showed on the T whenever it was siscovered might be whenever they saw that RPM every coin had the doubled T (not random like strike doubles). The fact that there was none of that same RPM
without a doubled T was the clue it was not strike related.

LOL LOL I hope not too long an answer? Wink

Dick · Expert Member

ED, it is not the length of an article, nor the shortness, but the CONTENT! therein lies the value. This has been a very informative post, and I may "lift" it, for my files. I didn't know about the '48-S, until now, particularily since I haven't had the occasion to look up that years RPM.Thank you ery much!
Dick

Teryble · Veteran Member

The first images w/ United is an 83P, didn't say on pupose to see just how good you guys are Cool

The little T next to the green tea is a 1968.We all got alot more educated and or got to show off your smarts. Definetly appreciated
Teryble

Dick · Expert Member

Teri, going back to your post of the '83, in the picture of "united", I believe I see what had you fooled, (and I have been there, too, for the same reason), Note that the edges of the "T & E". They look like doubling, but it is actually the vertical "wall" of the letters. that indicates to me that the die is still in a very good condition, not showing fatigue, and deterioration. If this is not correct, please let me know Thanks,
Dick