MS65+ grades

tholley · New Member

It's been several years since I've actively collected coins and now I'm getting back into it. I used to buy rolls of OBW cents to look through for errors and varieties, but now I'm interested in finding high quality coins as well.

I know that some cents from certain years are just harder to find in high quality grades. But if there are virtually no bag marks, but the features aren't very strong, what's the highest the cent could grade? Do the steps on the Lincoln Memorial have to be detailed to grade an MS65?

I'm trying to buy pennies graded by PCGS or NGC in MS65 and MS66 off of eBay to use as references, but I keep getting out bid on most. I'm less interested in the date as the grade. I'd like a few examples from each grade to compare my coins against.

What is the difference between a 65 or a 66 or even a 67?

If anyone has some high quality scans of cents in these grades that they would be willing to share with me as references, I'd appreciate it.

Also, should I be wearing gloves when I'm searching these mint bags?

Dick · Expert Member

tholly, I can't asnwer your questions, becauseI don't have that kind of experience, but the last, I would say yes, for two reasons: One, to keep from detting any slivers, or other sharp objects, and the general rule of handling coins with gloves, to prevent the oils from the fingers, getting on the coin, and eventually marring the surface. The oils, you know are well known for the acidity, and that will do some damage. You wiill find otheers who will be able to give you a much better answer.
Dick

cladking · Member

My understanding is the services are fairly tolerant of worn dies or bad strikes until you get up to MS-66 and above. An MS-65 will have to be decent though.

Steps are a factor but they're looking for full strikes. On most dates the steps can be found fully struck without a great deal of difficulty but some of the early ones are tough and many of the later ones are tough except in the mint sets.

fiddle-fart · Veteran Member

has anyone ever thought about doing a chemical analyist on what is on some of those coins?

coppercoins · Site Admin

A lot of the higher grade stuff with Lincolns has to do with surface cleanliness and luster, which kind of go hand in hand.

With wheat cents and memorials, complete, crisp details are required for MS67 and above (full strikes). The difference between MS67 and higher grades is strictly in marks...bag marks, stacking rub, etc.

Now I say 'crisp details' in that the details must be completely struck, not necessarily sharply defined. There are a number of different years' cents that didn't have sharply defined details, such as the reverse on any 1920s cent is not going to have deep, well defined wheat lines. Memorial cents in the early 1980s are not going to have good step lines. This is 'expected'. The difference, however, is in whether the high points are completely filled in by the strike - known areas of weakness must be completely struck up. This is a 67 or higher, depending on marks and luster.

Faded or 'affected' luster is going to hold a coin to 65 or lower.

Weakly struck coins (with weak or missing details) will generally be held to 64 or lower.

Coins with carbon spots and other forms of corrosion will be held to 63 or lower.

Scratches or large dings will keep a coin to 62 or lower, while simple bag marks and edge hits can grade higher.

Most of this is subject to focal areas too. Stuff in major focal areas will hold a grade lower than the same stuff in out-of-the-way areas.

There are so many different 'things' to consider when grading MS Lincolns...it could be a chapter of a book (or a small book) in itself.

Dick · Expert Member

Chuck, thanks for posting the differences in the averall grading, (to me), of any coin. I have wondered "where, or what marks the go/no go from one grade to the next higher. This sure helps me, and many others, as well.
BTW Have you had any more "ice storm problems", since your return?
Dick

coppercoins · Site Admin

Nope...these things happen then a few days (or weeks) later they go away. We didn't get hit by the worst of the storm, that was 50-75 miles south of here. A few miles can make a lot of difference in these things.

Dick · Expert Member

Chuck, from what Bill Slaughter says, it was hairy! No powert in Evening Shade, trees down, power lines down. I don't know ablut the rest of his neighbors, but he was fortunate in having emergency power unit, (7500 watts). He now has it wired in, instead of using the bare minimum for the fridgeas,a light, and a space heater! I'll bet it was COLD!!!!

Dick

coppercoins · Site Admin

Actually the Arkansas storm this past week wasn't nearly as bad as our storm in 2007. At least they had high temperatures in the 50s and 60s less than a week after the storm. After our massive ice storm it got cold and stayed that way for a couple of weeks. We didn't see temperatures above freezing for eight days after the end of the storm, and certainly didn't see 50s and 60s for at least a month.

It also didn't affect nearly the population that our storm affected. We have nearly 350,000 people within 40 miles of Springfield. That's more than the population of Arkansas and Missouri affected by the current storm.

We also had wind with that storm, which caused a lot more tree damage and hampered efforts to restore power. They haven't had as much wind as we had back then.

Not to say that this storm isn't bad at all...of course it's bad. But it's not the storm of the century - we had that one two years ago.

Dick · Expert Member

Hi Chuck! Bill was saying, that the wind was not blowing, and the temps were up. He cut over a cord of firewood, from the trees, and branches in his immediate yard. Like I told him, I saw a lot of snow, as a kid, but we never had an ice storm. I don;t envy you guys and those storms! Take care. Looks like you are pretty well settled in your "HOME again! That is good. Enjoy! Now you can really get started on those cents!
Dick

eagames · Expert Member

Here's a fun 1920-d to grade.
It's obv looks nice with no dings, scraches of any size and to me is full red. The rev has few marks but no wheat lines and not toned but a bit dull to go full red. Based on that and a sucky picture....

What would you grade it?

tholley · New Member

I've noticed that the images on this website for the various grade differences are missing. I'd really like images of cents in various grades of MS to compare my coins to.

Yes, I think a book of photographs of cents in MS would make a fantastic book. Photograde does not have images of the higher grades. I'd love to have a photo of an MS66 coin from several different years to know the difference between a 1982 MS66 and a 2007 MS66 coin.

coop · Expert Member

Ed: It looks like it was struck with a very worn die or worn hub that hubbed that die. Not coin wear, but die weakness that caused your coin to look like that.

eagames · Expert Member

Coop,

Yes that's the deal.
I thought it's a good one for this thread because it shows how on certain coins we can't grade based on wheat lines Wink

I would grade this 1920-d as a 63RB (the obv is sweet) but it's in an NGC 62RB slab so I think they punished it a lot for having that worn out rev die.

coop · Expert Member

Does it have evidence of the "So Called" 1955/5 DD effect on the date? It wouldn't surprise me if it did.