Sweden 1875/74 2 Ore overdate

[KurtS]

Here's an 1875 2 Ore I found today. Below are two shots under different lighting to best show all the details. At first glance, I suspected this much underlying detail could not be due to a few well placed die chips/gouges. Comparing to a 4 digit used in 1874, I see a strong correlation, particularly how that angled point (light arrow) matches a similar corner on a 4--and of course the diagonal and that right base of the digit.

I don't know if a 1875/4 is documented; I'll do an overlay to further confirm positions when I find a good enough reference.

Shape of 4 used for the 1874 2 Ore, followed by my coin.

[Dick]

Nice work, Kurt! The top one looks like they re-punched the whole thing, after trying to get rid of the "4'. The angle of the "4", still shows, and the bottom does the angle, even more, and some indication, that I noted right away, that the whole rack being Re-punched. It is the same date, but NOT the same die. The little projection on the upper curve of the "5" does not show on the upper picture. My guess it was done at the same place, but not the same time.
Dick

[KurtS]

Dick, thanks for dropping by and commenting!
PS: you know both pictures are the same coin, only under different lighting angles? I always do this with my overdate studies to capture as much detail as possible. A single photo never "cuts it".

[KurtS]

As an update, I discovered on a Swedish site this coin is described as the 1875/74. I had wondered about the shape of the 7, and that explains it! It appears to me they carefully positioned a punch containing "75" over the previous "74", which may explain the "stretched" shape of the 7. To my eyes, if the "18" was double-punched like the 7, I think the 8 would be thicker on one side, which is not the case here. Based on remaining details, I think they polished out some of the 4, but left the previous 7 when the die was updated.

It's now more interesting to do an overlay...which I'll make when I find good reference.

[KurtS]

One more update where I've taken a tracing of "74" from 1874 and created an overlay of the date.
It seems to closely follow the marks I see under the 5. And, if the two 7 digits are rotated a bit, that might explain the extreme flare seen on the base of the 7. I would guess the digits "75" were impressed into the die in a way to best cover up the 4 with the 5. That may explain why the 7 was rotated so much, but was done carefully enough to remain legible.

[Dick]

Kurt, I see what you mean. It is notable that the "75" seems to be quite uniform in the placement, andf alignment, vertiv]cally. I siure wish I had the overlay experience you have, but I haven't been actively collecting that long, much less collecting varieties! Very nice presentation! Bedtime! See you tomorrow!
Dick

[KurtS]

Thanks Dick! I'm learning as I go, and having fun doing it.

[Dick]

Kurt, I am learning, too, and enjoying every minute of it! For that, I am indebted to many members!
Dick

[KurtS]

Time for one more interesting update! If you care about Sweden overdates, that is.

I discovered something interesting when I compared my 1875/74 overdate to one on a Swedish site. In the photo below, the top coin was sold in Sweden, and the bottom photo is mine. At first glance there are many similarities, but striking differences too. On my coin, the diagonal of the 4 is far more prominent, as well as the shape/position of the 7 is different. However, the strongest evidence of two dies is the distance between the 8 and 7, which I don't think can be explained by die state or wear. As with the 1861/57 5 Ore, there must be at least two 1875/74 overdate dies.

[Dick]

Kurt, I was just comparing a side-by-side view using the magnifier, and there is a difference. I can't be more specific, but the "75" shows the similarities, but the "8" does not look the same.
The other thing to me, is that the 75 seems to be slightly tilted to the right. My eyes?
Dick

[KurtS]

Dick,
I have not looked hard at the 8, probably because the lower resolution/lighting of the first pic makes for some uncertainty. However, I also think the 7 has a different position/tilt...look at where the bottom of the 7 relates to the bottom of the 8. Aside from the 87 spacing, the thickness of the 7 top stroke is different enough that I'm reasonably sure it's not just the poor photo.

It's interesting that for specific US overdates, collectors generally acknowledge only 1 die was involved. But in the case of Sweden, I personally have two overdates that involved more than 1 die.

[Dick]

Kurt, it has to be almost a 'foregone conclusion", that there HAS to be more than one die. I'm sure the mintafge figures would indicate that. depending on the amount of coinage minted. I realize that Sweden, Finland, Norway, and Denmark, are all small countries, but together make a large representation of the coinage in western Europe. given the other countries that make up the EU. That is NOW, and the coins you are viewing , were THEN, which makes a lot of difference. I still think there has to have been more than one die for each denomination, or at least the more, ("Popular", by usage, and deniomination). Notwithstang the structure, and composition of the dies then, as compared to now. Look at our past jhistory, in the same respect.
Dick

[KurtS]

Dick, yes--if 19C. US was any indication, I suspect that die life was around. 200,000-300,000 coins during this time. Sweden had larger mintages than indicated by their own population due to annexing other territories. They were a bit of a bully back then.

But what I meant here was that I suspect Sweden had a practice of reusing dies that may be more prevalent than say the US. Case in point are the two coins I own: the 1861/57 and this 1875/74. How many US overdates involved more than 1 die? I can only think of a few exceptions, such as the CBH series overdates.

[Dick]

The fact that I have never sought the pre1900 coins, I am not familiar, other than those you, and others have posted. I do necessity, had to limit my US coin collecting to the cent, mainly, for thae reason of having been out of the "labor group", since '81. I have a very few, but they are mostly AG, G VG. The only high grade coins I have had in any quantity, have been the coins of Colonial Mexico.
The RPD's that I have seen, recently are those you, or others have posted, or in data banks. I would be more enthiused, if I could see better. I am glad I am able to see as much as I do, all considered. The CBH, is the cloaked bust Quarter, right?
Dick

[KurtS]

The Capped Bust Half series has a nice run of overdates, included some overdates that involve more than one die for that year. Here is the detail for the 1829/1827: